http://musicmouse.com/

1 Like

Not a DAW… but, SuperCollider 1.0 looks kinda retro:

9 Likes

I want to recommend Sunvox (as I think it’s fantastic!), but it looks like on Mac you need 10.9+ :slightly_frowning_face:
http://www.warmplace.ru/soft/sunvox/

1 Like

I never knew of the demoscene roots… that makes sense.

I wonder if this is live coding? Is there a link back to demoscene stuff there?

But yeah, it felt like the future! I can remember running it at 512 ticks per beat for maximum re-trigger points…

1 Like

Interesting question! there seems to be an obvious affinity (demoscene/live coding), but i don’t know exactly how either developed tbh. my guess is any kind of convergence happened more recently, but I would love to know more of the history.

Rebirth Museum site doesn’t seem to exist any more but you presumably can still download the abandonware ReBirth + expansion packs somewhere :slight_smile:

Had a lot of fun with Super Studio on the mac SE as a kid tho didn’t really progress beyond changing the demo tune instruments to roosters and heavy metal guitars http://www.madcapps.com/bogas_productions.htm

I gotta push back on drawing too many connections between live coding and the demoscene. Although there are demoscene competitions that are comprised of live coding graphics, the cultures are so different that it would bother me to equate the two… one is male-dominated, techno-deterministic, and fetishizes virtuosity. The other is inclusive and very open to beginners, although like every community there are bumps and warts.

FWIW I’ve never been to a demoscene event, I’ve only watched videos online and talked to other people involved in the community. So my impressions could be off-base.

All this aside, if you’re interested in trackers and live coding, definitely check out Chris Nash’s work on Manhattan!

Paper: http://eprints.uwe.ac.uk/26455/1/Chris%20Nash-Manhattan.pdf
Videos: http://revisit.info/manhattan/index.htm

3 Likes

I worked on Fasttracker 2 as my first “DAW”, that was around 96/97. I find the “tracker-way” still has something going for it that hasn’t really been replicated in modern DAWs; I find the vertical movement of the timeline more intuitive than the common horizontal way of viewing your work, it might be a result of me working with trackers during some formative years, but still.

4 Likes

I wonder which is the more techno-deterministic. Demos seem if nothing else, profoundly situated and existentially rooted, more or less the opposite of the techno-deterministic stance. Demos are about working within a highly specific situation into which one has been thrown – hacking, abusing, and repurposing whatever is available, to generate a highly specific performance in a situation without beginning or end.

Yes, in a local sense, authorship and virtuosity matter intensely; it’s a battle, the motivation in creating any specific demo is indeed to “win” by creating the most impressive result using the fewest resources. I agree that we shouldn’t ignore this aspect. But I also argue that we should embrace it. It’s important not to miss the forest for the trees.

In a global sense – the sense in which one would choose to participate in the scene in the first place – authorship and virtuosity don’t matter at all: the scene collectively authors itself, each demo in a large part recombines aspects of the previous ones; every action is part of a collective emergence and is only intelligible in light of the world brought forth in this emergence. In the last instance (in terms of one’s overall motivation to participate in the scene, not to make a specific demo) the ego is wrested from the participant and delivered over to the scene. The ego in other words is only “used” by the scene as a tool to propagate itself forward. The motivation to participate in the scene at all, on the whole or at least in part, seems as the very opposite of anything that fetishizes virtuosity, or that promotes narcissistic ego-identification; it’s the exhilaration of immersing oneself in a collective emergent expression, the joy of bringing forth a new world.

A similar dialectic exists within competitive games: while the goal of a participant in any specific contest is to win the game, the goal of the contest itself is to bring out both contestants in their ownmost, as each contestant’s style, strategy, sensibility – indeed, their entire way of being – is articulated most precisely only in the struggle. Win or lose, one surrenders one’s ego to the game; one lets one’s ego be used by the game in order that it may disclose oneself to oneself – an act which immediately lays the ego bare, exposing it at its most vulnerable, stripping it of any narcissistic pretension.

In any specific contest, a person may win and another may lose. But the contest does not really “make” one person a winner and the other a loser. The game discloses winners and losers alike most precisely and articulately to themselves (and perhaps to each other, and to the audience, situation permitting). The content of such disclosure is specific and irreducible. That’s why you play the game - not simply trusting who’s better “on paper”. But yes, within a single game, both players must fight at all costs to win – otherwise such disclosure simply does not happen.

Anyway, I don’t disagree with the problems you have pointed out, but I just would like to consider them in a slightly broader context.

That and if we expect real change (something quite on my mind given current crises)… I don’t think we should simply dismiss that which is most near, and by this I mean exactly things like the demoscene, emergent fandom cultures, new technologically-mediated new religious movements, and everything else that is continually unmentioned or dismissed as unworthy of serious attention because it did not come forth either an academic or in an industry setting. Not ignoring goes beyond discussing, it involves actually reaching out – building bridges and forging connections. Which involves for the most part listening, trying to accept things on their own terms, as they show themselves from themselves. Sure, we may recognize aspects as problematic, yet is this a recognition that meets the phenomenon on its own terms? To see requires a world, and that world has not yet been brought forth.

To bring forth a world – true change comes not through incremental innovation (“normal science” – the specialty of the academy) but by first recognizing, then gathering and articulating marginal practices that are emerging all around us, then bringing forth a world where they can be seen on their own terms, perhaps for the very first time. Such would then be a paradigm shift. The very idea of a “paradigm” is that of an example, something wholly singular, something preserved in itself that shines forth by its own light. Something that propagates through repetition rather than being conditioned by generality. Paradigm shifts never come from the lone warrior-genius, they come from what is already under way but not yet “in being”, not yet intelligible. They come from the “not where” and “not when” that is precisely what is closest to us and yet what we least notice. New worlds do not appear in response to what is past. They set up their own past, present, and future. I think the very least we can do is open ourselves a bit.

2 Likes

Late 80’s/early 90’s as a kid I spent many a rainy day coding and gaming on the family C128. In ‘98 I started out composing music on hardware. I had the Roland MC505 and VS840. At my friend’s place we’d compose using trackers such as OctaMED on his Amiga 500. Must have been late 90’s/early 00’s. Around this time I also started to do wave editing, mainly manipulating movie samples in Cool Edit Pro on my dad’s Pentium I. Soon I discovered Cubase VST and got an Atari. I have been using and upgrading Cubase since then for studio use. I nowadays use Ableton on stage for click tracks, midi messaging, video and audio backing for my band Schwarzblut. For my Voltmeister performances I regularly bring the C64 I got some years ago. Sounds great and reminds me of those lovely rainy days when I was a little boy. Plus the new generation loves it too:

12 Likes

Thanks! Agreed I was too harsh. The demoscene certainly influences my work, for example, the the graphical techniques found in http://charlie-roberts.com/marching/playground are largely derived from techniques explored in the demoscene.

I admit to thinking of videos like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-1zEo7DD8w as opposed to the original cracker signatures etc. when I wrote my post. But your suggestions are thoughtful and useful for either case.

1 Like

Wow, really great image there!! Wish I had an C64 or Amiga 500s with one of those classic monitors… Also always loved the look of the MSX any good trackers/vst type stuff ever come to MSX?

1 Like

I have a Beige G3 running OS9 and an opcode midi interface. It is hooked up by SCSI to a Kurzweil k2000 sampler and an Ensoniq Dp4 . I got onto a local vintage computer enthusiast and he sorted me out with the G3, scsi cables and bits and pieces for a great price (mostly he seemed happy to have someone to chat with about this stuff).

I’m running Opcode Studio, Alchemy Wave Editor, TurboSynth, Sound Diver, Recycle and a few other bits and pieces. The midi features on software from this era are way more advanced than modern stuff.
Things like having the sysex patch editors export patch names to your sequencer. Mostly I use this as a wave editor for the K2000 and patch library/editor for the effects processors.

I got all the software from http://macos9lives.com/ .

My other retro computer is Yamaha CX5m from 1984, which I use to edit my Dx7/TX816. I found a rom image of the editor and got it burnt onto a 3D printed cartridge.

8 Likes

Thank you actually for being harsh! And for following up with the videos… I do see your perspective a little more clearly now…, anyway your “push back” helped me sort of work out a number of things that are bugging me, foremost that I’m kind of “between worlds” at the moment and don’t really belong anywhere, but that’s another topic.

I never really got much into the demo scene but 1) when I learned what a tracker was I thought it was the coolest thing in the world, just like entering “pure numbers” in what was my favorite sequencer the Roland MC-4, which I never got again because they got really expensive. I was just really impressed that a scene could give birth to something like that. 2) the demoscene accidentally gave birth to a really important platform not really much associated with them anymore, but one that plays a major part in my “other life”. Cheers and thanks again!

I was going to say, OctaMED wants a word!

4 Likes

somehow started with master trax pro

and scream tracker 3

3 Likes

I started with Fruity Loops, Sound Forge, Acid, and Audio Mulch (which is still around!) Also loved the Hammerhead Drum Machine when I felt like making some jungle beats.

2 Likes

Thanks! The C64 runs with the Mssiah cartridge at the back of the C64. It has a midi in option and gives direct on screen access to the SID chip. You can ‘play’ the C64 keyboard to make sound. External midi can also be used to generate sound, but for this mode it automatically disables the video/screen output to have sufficient power to process the incoming midi. It looks great, has a workable workflow and above all it sounds realy realy great.

1 Like

i have a C64 with an SD card reader that i use to play with Cynthcart (and Ultimate Tron II for 6 player fun)
you can hook up the paddle controllers to cynthcart to control filter cutoff. so cool!

2 Likes

My first was Steinberg Pro 24 on an Atari ST. It came free with the computer when I purchased it. I don’t have strong feelings about it as a piece of software although something must have clicked in terms of how it worked with me as I’ve remained a Cubase user to this day.

1 Like