Ableton Live 10


I was reading the audio fact sheet I linked above, and tried to think about how to boil it down to a couple simple guidelines for avoiding artifacts, and I realized it just isn’t very simple. And I think that might be the whole problem. They’ve left it too possible to shoot yourself in the foot, even if it is theoretically possible to get perfect quality if you don’t do anything stupid.

I think I could learn a lot from a thread like that!


Epecially true if you consider the “export all tracks” function is there to simplify things in the first place… so, “we’ve made this great function to simplify things but oh wait you’ve got to be careful about a hundred little things if you don’t want it to fuck your work!” Seems like a horrible concept ^^ anyhow, I’ll buy Live 10 and I do hope they’ll clear all the bugs wonderfully because I’ve got so many of them already, because of plugins and M4L, it’s kinda freaky on stage sometimes. Especially random CPU spikes popping for no reason when the computer runs at a smooth 10/15% of CPU the rest of the time and the ram barely hit 35/40%.


I read the whole fact sheet and I don’t really see anything in there that comes as a huge surprise. But most of it deals with how to keep stuff sounding like the source audio, I don’t really see anything that would affect bouncing down of tracks.


I just think it’s a bit of a weird system and should be avoided in general (don’t even know if it should be blamed on the summing algorythm), it’s just so tempting when you see it! I’ve learned to function differently and consider it a non-feature but it’s definitely NOT on my list of things I wish for Live 10 futur updates :slight_smile:


Has anyone tried using Ableton with Rewire into another DAW? Just realized I could try that…


i’ve struggled to understand how different software could possibly perform summing differently. assuming it really is just summing and there isn’t, i dunno, some phase distortion going on a… panning section? hard to imagine.

the only kind of theory i can come up with is, inverting the question, that any active analog circuit introduces some imperceivable amount of noisy time decorrelation. and analog summing is just “better” because each channel gets decorrelated differently and as a result their signals are more independent and “real.”

this wouldn’t explain some particular DAW having “worse summing” than others unless they are doing something kind of crazy.

(but, of course i believe that something is going on, people aren’t making it up, i must be blissfully ignorant of whatever it is)

(isn’t dithering a kind of decorrelation algorithm?)

(as in, @madeofoak i wonder if dithering each track before summing in SW, would make a perceptual difference? thought experiment)

(or dammit, i want to try some form of dithering that consists of randomly delaying each sample value by a tiny fraction of a sample, then sinc interpolating back to the sample rate… i’ve nerdsniped myself)


I’ve never understood that either. It should be basically adding a bunch of samples and then scaling the result. I would have thought it was a no brainer with floating point.


To answer my own question, Ableton is severely limited in ReWire slave mode. No VST plugins, no Max4Live, no control surfaces (?!?). Basically useless.


Maybe this was an issue in the past but I just now did a simple test. 5 tracks, exported first the master like normal, then exportet all individual tracks. Dither and normalization turned off.

Then I made a new project and imported all the tracks. Deleted the bounces for the returntracks that was silent anyways, and the master from the individual tracks export.

Then I used the utility plugin to flip the phase of the master stereo track.


They summed perfectly.

Then I did a test where I send on of the tracks to a bunch of reverb and the other one to a bunch of delay.
Some test, lot of the reverb came through, everything else silent. Which makes sende if they put some algorithm in the reverb which is a bit different every time it gets something in.


(yeah, Logic’s comping is so good, I’ve dropped into it for just those purposes - usually guitar takes on my part. Just works, and the scrubbing makes it easy to play/fiddle with).


An interesting way to see if it’s because the reverb is doig something different everytime would be to summ the track in stereo twice and then invert the phase, if it’s perfect silence it means something else is happening there! I mean if there’s changes in the algorithm there must be changes from one stereo sum to the other as well so that’s pretty easy to catch.


If there is internal modulation in the reverb it will probably be somewhat different each time. Another thing you could do if you really care about having identical sound is to freeze the tracks first before bouncing down.


Oh I personally don’t care I’m just interested in it in a nerdy way! ^^


Recently Live updated the way they handle video, making it easier to adjust the output file.

I was hoping they were going to do more in this direction but realise it’s a DAW not a video-editing program. It could be something that distinguishes them in the marketplace though.


THIS, to me, would have been a major improvement. I know it’s not the number one tool for video scorer (I seem to remember Studio One is the usual go to DAW for that?) but it’s mine and I’d love it if it could handle video a bit more smoothly, right now it’s really sketchy and it’s actually worse with Live 64bits which is kinda crazy, and I was convinced with the announcement of the 64bit only support that this was gonna be on the priority list but it seems it wasn’t. It’s ok really, I just hope it will come later :slight_smile:


Cheers, I hadn’t heard of Studio One and will have a look.

There’s a definitely a lot of scope for Live to explore generating and mixing visuals.


My bad, it’s apparently Digital Performer by MOTU for scoring and things like that (including videogame), which I never even tried so really, don’t read anything positive other than hear-say here, but I’d be interested to try someday!!!


Reaper does a pretty good job for video too. It’s also very inexpensive, and the demo is full featured if you just want to get a feel for it.


I think Reaper is a killer DAW in general if you don’t have any reason / money to go look elsewhere, it’s kind of incredible all the features it has for such a small price and such a small team (I assume?). I’ll always root for Reaper if anyone asks about a cheaper, reliable DAW.


This post made my week. I have nothing constructive to add other than a wholehearted agree - and think there should be a workflow / routing thread!