Thanking you for pointing that out! I’d been considering getting one for use with my Paca

I finally got a chance to try cv tools today and I was unable to get live to calibrate using my Ultralite.

Did you need to do anything special to get it to connect?

Ah, I hadn’t tried the “calibrate” feature. The pitch tracking was working for the oscillators I was using just out of the box.

I tried just now to “calibrate” with the calibrate button on the CV instrument and it did not work at all. I got an error message about how the CV wasn’t amplified enough --but the actual pitch seems to track great for my purposes even without using the calibration feature. Fwiw, one “special” thing I am using to connect things is TRS to TS cables (from Expert Sleepers).

Thanks. I have the Expert Sleepers cables as well, and am getting the same error message, but the signals aren’t working much or at all.

The cv mod devices barely cause any sign of a wiggle… I wonder if there’s a setting in the Ultralite that I’m overlooking…

it may be because the Motu doesn’t have DC-coupled inputs, just outputs? I’m not sure that is the case but it could be worth checking.

I initially tried to calibrate via an ES-8, with the Oscillator plugged into an RME and got the same error message. I tried again using the ES-8 inputs and everything worked perfectly…

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Interesting

I was going into the standard audio inputs, but with a standard line level signal, and the device let me indicate that as the input,so weird…

But you are getting a slight signal out of the MOTU? If so, then I’m not sure what’s going on, but if you’re getting no-signal at all it may be something with the routing between Live and the Motu? I find the routing matrix in the ultralite configuration/mixing web-app to be a little convoluted.

FWIW, when configuring things in the Live CV Tools I’m selecting “ext. out” and then the outputs (and the output mapping is sometimes a little different than what I’m expecting based on how I was routing in the Motu app).

Hope you can get it working!

I’m kind of at my wits end concerning latency in Ableton and my Expert Sleepers ES8. I just bought a brand new 8 Core, 32Gb RAM, Macbook Pro. (had the same issues on my last computer though) I’m using Ableton 10. Latest OS. I adjusted the driver error compensation. I have no plugins in my session, buffer is at 32 samples, sample rate 44.1. I’m constantly turning delay compensation and low latency monitoring on and off. I cannot for the life of me record without latency. I emailed Expert Sleepers and they were no help. (This is my second ES-8.) They told me to use Live’s Ext Audio Effect plugin to output my clock that syncs the modular but that didnt help. I also just bought a Digitone and there is no latency when using Overbridge but there is latency when I plug the audio output into the ES8. I love everything about the ES8 and I’m not totally confident that changing sound cards will fix my problem. I’ve read everything I could possibly read about this on the internet and don’t know where else to turn. I would ideally like my Digitone, modular, and Ableton to be in perfect sync and right now it’s just not happening. I’m even getting different degrees of latency from my Ableton clocked modular and my Digitone sequenced modular. Does anyone else experience this degree of latency frustration?!

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Welp… somehow haven’t seen this before. This explains my problem exactly:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=195180

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I’ve always monitored via my interface’s low latency monitoring rather than via the DAW. In theory, any latency in the recording should be compensated for after the fact, leaving everything seamless. I get good results this way on my system - a 4 core i5 - at 128 samples.

Not sure how helpful this is is for you, as I dont’ know much about the ES-8 or its routing options; are you using it in addition to another interface, or standalone?

@jonatron I do the same thing w the interface low latency monitoring (which works great)…the lining up seamless however has not been my experience. Usually the recorded track shows up 100ms or so after in ableton arrangement. I have to go in and actively move whatever I recorded to get it to line up. Do you have any special settings or anything to make that work?

Note I have tried setting the Delay value at the edge of the tracks that are too slow but that does not correspond to the actual number of ms/samples the thing is behind.

Thanks for sharing. I have the same setup but had never noticed anything bad. I had no clue Live did this, it’s pretty terrible these features are poorly documented and can’t be toggled manually.

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I haven’t noticed anything really off, but I’ll have to do a more quantitative check when I have a chance.

Have you noticed this happening more with certain recording set ups than others? There might be latency introduced outside of your interface/computer in an external device.

This kind of stuff can be a real pain to troubleshoot.

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Latency compensation in most DAWs works based on reported latency by the interface. Specs of the computer have nothing to do with it except for preventing buffer over/underruns.

The way it works is this: when the DAW is in playback mode, you hear whatever real latency is there via the live (e.g. monitored through the DAW) armed tracks.

So, e.g. for rehearsal, you’ll get a few ms or so of latency (double the single-path latency figure shown for your interface and buffer combination) hearing yourself play along with the audio, but that’s usually (on a modern system with 4-8ms of one-way latency) tolerable (except in a few cases for drummers with an exceptionally tight sensitivity to timing). It’s roughly the same as hearing yourself in the monitors on a largeish stage.

But when the DAW goes into record mode, you hear the same thing, but when it puts the audio on the timeline, it subtracts the one-way latency from the input signal, shifting it “back” in time by this figure. This, in most cases, with most interfaces, puts it bang on timing-wise with the rest of the recorded tracks.

This is if latency compensation (the manual adjustment figure) is 0. If you put ANYTHING in that figure, it’s added or subtracted from the automatic compensation. In other words, unless the automatic compensation is flat out wrong (usually due to poor driver design or crappy audio hardware - not the case with RME, later MOTU, etc. gear), you should have nothing in this field at all.

As @jonatron said, if you have anything else in the signal path (external audio effects, for instance) that add latency to what ultimately ends up on the track, you could be shifting this value - but that would only apply to the audio either coming OFF the recorded track or the audio going IN (which you would hear, and thus somewhat compensate for by your playing style). It will still be lined up on the recorded track as it would have been without the buffer in the way.

This is where direct monitoring comes in - if you’re monitoring through the DAW, you may be overcompensating in your playing for the perceived latency and thus playing too early. This will result in your recorded track appearing “early” compared to the other laid down tracks too. If you’re monitoring direct, you won’t hear any difference between the playback and your playing, and the DAW will make only it’s automatic compensation for the buffers and interface timing, and things should be quite close to sample accurate once you play back what you recorded.

If you’re seeing your recorded track coming in LATE comparatively, then you’re either playing behind, or you’ve put an incorrect latency compensation value in your tracks, or your interface is really badly mis-communicating the latency to the DAW.

My recommendation: apply no latency compensation manually, use automatic latency compensation if it’s an option in your DAW, and record using live (direct) monitoring, with the DAW input monitoring OFF. This leads to the most accurate physical timing as well as the most correct placement of the audio on the recorded track relative to the other tracks.

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Great advice, another potential solution is to mute the recording channel in the DAW and use a small external mixer for live monitoring. For example mult the signal being recorded to both the interface and the mixer, and send the DAW mix to another channel on the mixer. Then you can monitor the mix of the DAW and your playing without any latency. This is similar to direct monitoring, though I found on my interface (Focusrite Saffire) the direct monitor does still have a very small amount of latency (about 1 ms), though less than a DAW round trip.

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I’ve come to the conclusion that my issue is jitter and not just latency. The timing of my recordings are being recorded inconsistently all of the time and across many channels. Sometimes its early and sometimes its late. Different tracks will have different amounts of latency. I’ve tried everything there is to try other than replacing my sound card or buying one of those external midi sync devices. Does anyone have any advice as far as jitter is concerned?

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To me, your issue sounds less like an issue with the ES-8 and more like an issue with the Ableton Live settings. You also mentioned a Digitone in your previous message, I would first get the sync between Live and your modular setup correct without involving the Digitone, especially if you are using Overbridge.

Thanks DMR, Yeah the Digitone is brand new which is why sync became more important than ever. I actually just realized that Overbridge causes latency and once I remove the plugin things start to look a little more stable. But then I figured I can just compensate by changing the Hardware Latency amount on the Ext Instrument device but it doesnt do anything at all. How does one compensate for plugin latency correctly? I tried the track delay too. Nothing seems to work properly.

Version 10.1 has added user wavetables, you just drag audio files in, it’s delightful.

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so i did some testing using the driver supplied values for error compensation. my setup was a midi gate via cvocd opening a vca. the end result was about 4 ms late. then i tried playing an audio track directly out of and back into my interface, which gave me less than one ms of delay in the recording. so i guess my interface is reporting the latency properly for the most part but ableton midi/cvocd is introducing additional delay.

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