Lopatin discuss the score for Uncut Gems (great movie!!) together with Josh Safdie in his studio

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this is very very cool, making very good use of their gear

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hello! i wanted to make a thread for people to post pictures, links, stories, etc. and otherwise have a place for general discussion focused on the performance aesthetic/musical output of artists who use a big plastic folding table when they play! or similar - i’d say artists who play on the floor count here too!

oddly specific perhaps, but i feel a kinship with this style personally and am fascinated by it.

a few random thoughts: i wonder if having your gear laid out in a total organized chaos which has to be painstakingly assembled before each gig and then disassembled right after lends itself to a certain type of workflow which in turn lends itself to a certain type of sound? most of the artists that i enjoy which come to mind are working in a semi-improvisational framework that’s often sonically rough around the edges - anywhere from heavily processed acoustic instruments to full-blown electronic noise.

i also wonder if the advent of, for example, more readily available ergonomic tools like pedalboards and powered pre-fab modular cases (and the associated communites which have accumulated around those tools online have led to a sort of… homogenization of the way people are thinking about these types of workflows, especially as it pertains to a live performance environment? it seems like the early 00s was really the peak tabletronics era and i think there’s a connection there.

also wondering if there are any lines members who would care to share their own music/performances if it applies to this overall aesthetic? i’m interested to see who out there is carrying the torch of this (sort of) bygone era!

a few photos attatched as examples :blush: also posting this from mobile so apologies for any formatting weirdness in this post

Yellow+Swans unnamed A-40857-001 philip-jeck-68049276-576e-48bd-afbe-3306da3b77a-resize-750

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I love the lack of like… manufacturer loyalty here. What a hot mess this skiff is :heart_eyes: And of course, for him.

Great read. “Workaround” has been one of my favourite albums this year.

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Actually for the academic studies for electronic music everyone is using the computer and only the computer as an instrument mostly with Pure Data or Max MSP or Supercollider or other programming environments. For them anything else than sound is a distraction, so they are not interested in gear or other elements of a live show. So there is exactly the opposite of what you think. Last few years only I see more composers using different instruments than a computer.

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I think there is a distinction between the academic study of electronic music, and music academies more generally (where people are also studying / playing traditional instruments). I believe it was the latter that was being referenced.

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Yes I get indeed music academies are very conservative and they base their educational program on technique. So it’s understandable that they see the computer not as an instrument but as an easy way for amateurs to make sounds.

My friends are studying electroacoustic composition at music academy and they still had to choose acoustic instruments to learn during their studies so it is not 100% max msp/pure data. Some of them who are great electronic musicians even left the academy because they performed poorly on acoustic instruments. It is cool that your experiences differ but that doesn’t mean that mine are invalid.

Oh no I didn’t mean it that way! I was just sharing my experience. I do think it’s good to learn to play an instrument and to learn composition if you want to be a complete magician. It’s also a lot of fun! It can only help you develop your musicality.

Actually (…) So there is exactly the opposite of what you think.

Sorry about that, english is not my first language but this sounded to me like a negation of my experiences.
And I am aware of advantages that playing various instruments can give you (I have played guitar for a long time before I picked up electronic music more than 10 years ago) but as I said in post that you responded to this can also affect how you create electronic music and I am curious how people who don’t play any “acoustic” instruments would voice their chords etc. Maybe they would do it totally in standard way or maybe they would push music making in directions that we don’t dare to explore because our muscle memory (and other traits gained from playing acoustic instrument) moves us away from. Like for example you still have piano roll in DAWs and maybe for people “native” to electronic music something entirely different would make sense and allow other possibilities.
And I think that failing people in degree (that should be about electronic music) just because they perform poorly on acoustic instrument is an artifact of old way of thinking about music we should try to challenge.

I would like to apply to this school please.

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haha misspelling! But a good one, right? :wink:

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Concerning the ars magia, alchemy refers to the pure sonorous element (the inscrutable, earthly materiality of sound; the pure radiance and shine that resists or exceeds every attempt to describe or control it); kabbalah the pure and necessary, generative logics of organization and composition; and astrology the coordination between the two – the oldest ‘causal mechanism’ – the grand system of correspondences holding everything together. Each one implicates and is reflected in the others.

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For the computer to be understood as an instrument in its own right, computing itself must first be brought forth in its own right as a medium, not simply as a representation or simulation of an existing medium.

It’s not just resistance to change, but the very idea of simulation itself where efforts seem to be lacking.

Computing in and for itself – I’ve already written a post on what this means:

In other words, we need something like the 1920’s anti-pictorialism movement in photography and this really hasn’t happened yet. Or worse , it was happening more in the 60’s through 90’s, but since, with the extreme hegemony of surveillance capitalism and all of our actual computers set up as portals to this, or basically as devices for consumption not creation, there’s been a severe falling-off, and the revolution really never got completed.

Suffice to say ‘computing in and for itself’ absolutely means code as the key functional element of instrumental practice. It should mean new and more accessible ways of code, such as physical computing and live coding etc. The keyboard/IDE or even vi/emacs are absolutely insufficient.

Above all the revival of hacking, the liberation of code from professionalized practices [self-documentation, reusability, version control], refusal of semantic software abstractions or skeuomorphism of any sort, and a renewed closeness to the hardware layer would all be important steps.

What’s good? I mentioned someone like Vera Molnar in visual art. While I didn’t mention much in music or sound, I think Gottfried Michael Koenig in the ‘Funktion’ works comes very close. But again, there’s some falling off from the main concept if computing as a medium simply refers back to music, visual art, video, or ‘interactive experience’.

Indeed, it’s depressing that the paradigmatic works are often so far in the past, being from 50 to 70 years old. It indicates that we’re in danger from being totally cut off from a very important legacy.

The computer in and for itself, as its own medium, may express itself in various derivative media, but should not take too many cues from how these media have existed thus far – just as photography is not painting, film is not theatre, and so on.

So absolutely, VST’s are out, ableton is out, many uses of max/supercollider are out though at least as programming languages they have much more potential than for what they’re being used currently. Analog/physical modeling is ‘out’, AI especially ‘out’. Something like ppooll is more ‘in’, Orca and SonicPi are ‘in’, circuit bending is in – but all this is just baby steps – the physical can and should be more a part of this.

Finally since the conversation references institutions – I hope we can acknowledge this awful trend, with well-funded institutions devoted to ‘computer music’ or ‘media engineering’ or ‘sound informatics’, in which the engineering effort is devoted 100% to training the best and brightest to work for the major tech companies and/or surveillance organizations, while the arts aspect is simply forgotten. Or that the notion of what makes an acceptable publication is that one has merely simulated something to make it cheaper or more accessible, rather than having helped bring forth a new sense of the real. Art is then simply devalued as aesthetics or decoration rather than something with a fundamentally important role in opening up new ways in which it is possible to be. Or worse, the artist is requisitioned into this system, creating things like ‘earcons’ for self-driving cars – apparently this is the way art validates itself institutionally. All this would have been absurd 50 or even 30 years ago.

‘Broader impact’ – is only interpreted in the narrowest sense of this commodification or simulation, because that’s all that is thought to be legitimate. Is it any wonder that Mark Fisher is right and we’re endlessly stuck recycling the past and our greatest worry is that we haven’t brought back the past accurately enough? Or that Kevin Kelly is right and we’re just ending up with an exact facsimile of the so-called ‘physical world’, in which a virtual world does not even function as fantasy or escape?

So while I agree that there’s too much conservatism in music, it still stands: traditional instrumental practice (say: violin practice) always was ‘in and for itself’, but computer practice always points to and seems to be ‘for’ something else. The computer will only be fully respected as an instrument when it can stand fully and completely on its own.

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Whoa! That’s an awesome post!

I have a response… a response in the way of a piece of music I’m working on… but I’m still about 6 months from being ready to talk about it. But, I think it fits right in with this broader thinking!

I realize I’m being a bit of a tease… but this way I’ll remember to come back to this thread and post when it’s closer to ready.

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So only binary will be acceptable then?

I find it peculiar that you use the term “acceptable” to demonize a form of institution or current practice that you seem to disagree with or oppose (at least in the context of that paragraph), and yet use terms such as “absolutely”, and “[X or Y] are out”, and “refusal” in your description of what is, essentially, acceptable in order to reach what you call Computing in and for itself.

Wouldn’t that be just another form of gate keeping? A different kind of purism? And why is abstraction bad? I assume the purpose of UI/UX is to break barriers, and the typical interaction with the computer is via coding, so why are keyboards insufficient (re: live coding) but sensors are in? In that sense, wouldn’t physical computing be considered as a form of abstraction?

I’m curious as to why computing wouldn’t be accepted as a thing in and of itself for the things that only a computer can do? And why do the form of these things need be computer-only to be acceptable? I have yet to see a violin doing a physical modeling of a violin.

I fondly remember part of a discussion in which, I think it was Elon Musk, was talking about how we’ve distanced ourselves from the machine ever since we moved to using two thumbs instead of ten fingers to communicate with it. I really appreciate these kinds of discussions, but then again I really enjoy watching Jaron Lanier videos.

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i’m interested to see who out there is carrying the torch of this (sort of) bygone era!

I guess I think of it less as a “bygone era” and more as “still me and most of my friends”. :smiley:

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This question concerns representation, whereas the purpose is to move beyond representation. The ‘result’ couples humans, machines, and physical media. It cannot be described either as binary or non-binary because it is not a representation.

In other words, ‘I’ no longer uses the Turing-complete structures of sequential binary logic to re-present something to itself; the ‘I’ plugs directly into these structures, transforms itself and thereby presents something, namely itself, for the first time. Whether or not ‘Turing-complete’ is even necessary for this has been debated in the other thread: Is Eurorack Turing Complete?

Also debated was the necessity of ‘binary’ abstractions, or whether or not directly interfacing to the hardware can occur at a lower, sub-binary level. The Serge ‘triple comparator’ can synthesize any binary logic function, yet each comparator cell can also be patch-programmed through feedback to function as a memory element (positive feedback) or a linear one (negative feedback). Ghazala’s circuit-bending of (primarily) digital consumer devices by (perhaps inadvertently) introducing similar feedback paths, also subverts Turing abstractions, exposing the specificity of the hardware implementation.

That being said, the questions of ‘the binary’ and ‘representation’ do reassert themselves in a very a particular sense. This sense is not the mere, isolated ‘fact’ of the representation, but the entire circuit comprising humans, hardware, and other physical media, the circuit of the transformed ‘I’.

For instance --is it really necessary to have a ‘direct’ (unmediated) connection to binary or lower-level hardware elements, or are layers of semantic abstraction necessary or at least helpful in mediating this connection? In my ongoing studies with ‘performable logic’ I think not (as to ‘necessity’), but there are legitimate opposing points of view. For instance, Myron Krueger’s early 1970’s experiments in ‘artificial reality’ (e.g. Videoplace) promote limited uses of abstraction. Kreuger argues that his earlier experiential frameworks (e.g. GLOWFLOW with Dan Sandin) failed in part because “the participants could not establish the relation between action and display”. The ‘human-like’, and therefore semantic, video projections of Videoplace helped resolve this issue. Sufficiency is not necessity, however. Indeed, Krueger contextualizes the earlier failure also as a lack of directness ("[c]hanges in the display were indirectly contingent on the actions of participants"). So the necessary part could simply be this ‘directness’ rather than the mediating layer of semantic abstraction. Indeed, as Friedrich Kittler notes in his essay “There Is No Software”, Turing himself often associated directness with lack of abstraction, as he preferred to view and thus think directly in machine code. The one who did the most to advance the computer did so in part by transforming himself into one.

In the final analysis, however, Krueger’s focus is always on the circuit as a whole, and that this circuit has nothing to do with representation or semantic abstraction. In other words, Krueger is very definite that the circuit is the medium: ‘interaction’ or ‘experience’ is the proper domain of the artwork, not whatever images, videos, or sounds result from it. What emerges counts; what merely represents or reproduces previous forms of media does not. Statements such as “The beauty of the visual and aural response is secondary. Response is the medium” are to this effect. Or more directly:

The visual responses should not be judged as separate art works; nor should the sounds be judged as music. The only aesthetic concern should be the quality of the interaction, which may be judged by general criteria: the ability to interest, involve, and move people, to alter perception, and to define a new category of beauty.

That is – altered perception, altered consciousness; the ‘I’ transformed by the circuit. The gnostic, not the epistemic view. Despite Krueger’s use of representation in the circuit, his goal is not representation, but the transformation of the consciousness that re-presents, into that which comes forth and presents itself for the first time.

What then, does it mean to “come forth and presen[t] itself”? To ‘form a circuit’ is not enough. In speaking of the ‘transformed I’ we speak already of an entity – a cyborg.

Such an entity does not merely come forth in the ‘circuit’; it must also maintain itself in this coming-forth. It must thus stand fully in the decision for itself – the decision between the pre-individual and individual. While various frameworks have emerged to describe these ‘circuits’; i.e. intentional arcs, rhizomes, actor-networks – that of second-order cybernetics seems simplest and most illustrative here, as it keeps the focus on individuation. The key element here is autopoiesis – the ability of such an entity to regenerate itself from within itself. Only when the ‘I’ is embedded in a circuit that is itself autopoietic, can we claim this ‘I’ has been transformed.

Also – the issue is not just one circuit, but the medium as a whole, such that medium, message, and messenger are all one. An expanded circuit, involving all of the human practitioners, sequential binary logic elements, and other physical media in aggregate, including channels for communication and the dissemination of works must be considered in the sense of autopoiesis, in the sense of what is truly in and for itself.

That such autopoietic structures in computing as a whole are possible – is evidenced by the degree of inner consistency in the artworks mentioned. The examples I had illustrated in the earlier referenced post (Vera Molnar, Manfred Mohr, Frieder Nake) already provide a strong case for this – there are common structures and transformed ways of thinking which tie these artists and works closely together. Daniel Temkin’s recent Hyperallergic article – “The Hacker Aesthetic of Minimalist Code”, discusses more recent but similar work and echoes Krueger in making a case for computing and de-abstractifying code (e.g. “extreme code minimalism”) – not image, video, sound as its own medium. Such artworks, criticism, and minimal coding frameworks which unify today’s efforts with those of 50-75 years ago enable the medium to regenerate itself, thus provide some basis for the autopoiesis of the medium as a whole.

Of course, the standard bureaucratic dean or academic functionary may object that these artworks and transformed/cyborg thinking that emerges with it are ‘useless’. Such objections entirely miss the point. The question is not what can ‘we’ can do with it, it is what it can do with us. The question of computing in and for itself is a question of transforming this ‘we’. It demands not academic detachment, but the courage to stand in the decision in and for this transformation.

To be sure, the effort is a call to decision – not simply to choose one path while forgetting the other, but to stand in the decision, to acknowledge its necessity.

If the call is against anything, it is not ‘the other side’, so much as the persistence of an ambiguity, in which one side is constantly confused for the other. To stand in the decision means – to overcome this ambiguity, not by effortlessly eliminating one of its terms, but to recognize the ambiguity itself as the site of a struggle or decision, and to recognize how art has contributed to the working-out of this struggle.

Acknowledgement for now is key. What follows is the happening of history, beyond this ‘end of history’. The ‘result’ of the decision is not expressed here, but is brought forth in what comes.

The ambiguity is essentially that between two ‘senses’ of computing – two senses of the human/hardware/physical circuit and its emergent figure – the cyborg – thus described. This ambiguity governs no less all senses of cybernetics indicated above, on the basis of which the ‘in and for itself’ is interpreted as autopoeisis.

The key statement of the ambiguity is that by Donna Haraway [Cyborg manifesto --1984]:

From one perspective, a cyborg world is about the final imposition of a grid of control on the planet, about the final abstraction embodied in a Star Wars apocalypse waged in the name of defense, about the final appropriation of women’s bodies in a masculinist orgy of war (Sofia 1984). From another perspective, a cyborg world might be about lived social and bodily realities in which people are not afraid of their joint kinship with animals and machines, not afraid of permanently partial identities and contradictory standpoints.

Moreover, it’s not simply that these perspectives coexist – they are locked in a struggle in which the second undermines the very conditions of the possibility of the first. The senses of this undermining are clear in the rest of the manifesto.

But if we search within our own experience, we can find that this ambiguity expresses itself in many other ways.

This ambiguity is felt on the one hand in the sense that the postwar anthropotechnics of mystic union and self-transcendence; i.e. computing, electronic music, and modern psychedelics were all developed first as military technologies. Adjacent phenomena such as UFOlogy and desert heterotopias in the specifically ‘postwar’ sense also come from here – from the military-industrial complex. Friedrich Kittler in the conclusion of his essay “Rock Music: A Misuse of Military Equipment” points this out re: Hendrix:

Fittingly, ‘And the Gods Made Love’ is the title of the first track on Jimi Hendrix’s Electric Ladyland. But the masters of the world no longer have a voice or ears, as they did for Nietzsche. All one hears is tape hiss, jet noise, and gunshots. Shortwave – between the transmitters, which is to say intercepted from the military-industrial complex – sounds similar. Perhaps, under the conditions of a world war, love must come from white noise.

It is felt again in the ambiguous sense of ‘Californian Ideology’ [https://www.metamute.org/editorial/articles/californian-ideology], in which the 1984-1995 period of temporary autonomous zones, raves, and other areas of techn[o]cculture which characterized the earliest uses of the Internet gave way first to the .com bubble, surveillance capitalism, and total mobilization in the direction of the plaftorm-Singularity.

It is felt in the difference between Krueger’s early-70’s transformative vision of ‘artificial reality’, as a medium unto itself, and Kevin Kelly’s mirrorworld consisting in the universal reproducibility of existing media. [https://www.wired.com/story/mirrorworld-ar-next-big-tech-platform/]. Yet both parade interchangeably under the names ‘virtual reality’ or ‘augmented reality’.

It is felt in the twin phenomena of McMindfulness and the medicalization of psychedelics. Again, gnostic self-transformation gives way to the epistemic self-mobilization of the ‘I’: the manufacture of docile, well-disciplined, clear-thinking, accurately-representing and above all ‘productive’ workers, who are to implement unquestioningly the regime[s] mentioned above. [https://www.huffpost.com/entry/beyond-mcmindfulness_b_3519289] [https://harvardpolitics.com/covers/psychedelics-in-the-age-after-aquarius/] Far less questioned is whether the fundamental relation between self and world is even one of ‘production’ (in the sense of the key political question being control over ‘means of production’) – or rather one of cultivation – of bringing forth poietically that which produces itself autopoietically – and being thereby transformed. And the ‘political’ question thus being – the polis as the site of the event of transformation.

The ambiguity is felt in the word ‘cybernetics’ itself [Greek kubernes: steering, control]. Feedback, via the LQR theorem, is what achieves ‘optimal control’: drive a system to a pre-specified state using a minimum-energy input. Maximum production at minimum cost – do not open oneself to the system, do not allow the system to transform oneself, but simply force it into place, where this ‘place’ is already present, is re-presented. And yet, as we learn from ‘chaos theory’, feedback subverts any attempt at ‘control’. The toggle between control and subversion of control can be as simple as flipping a switch: changing positive feedback into negative. The ‘butterfly effect’: the smallest change in initial conditions yields an arbitrarily large change in the final result. Feedback subverts systems themselves, rendering them non-representable, transforming them into what they are not – even a simple binary circuit (comparator) becomes a linear element when the output is fed back to the negative terminal.

Such are among the many senses of this ambiguity. The ambiguity was indeed recognized long before 1984, in the works of artists such as Gustav Metzger, Hermann Nitsch, and Mark Pauline. That is – this work doesn’t simply ‘choose’ one side or the other, it’s not ‘naive Futurism’ – rather, it forces one to confront the ambiguity as ambiguity and thus, be able to stand in the decision regarding the cyborg. Metzger’s 1959-61 manifestos on auto-destructive/auto-creative art are already in a sense founding expressions of this ambiguity and this decision. [http://radicalart.info/destruction/metzger.html]. Perhaps a direct line can be drawn between his expositions at the London ICA and the beginnings of so-called ‘industrial’ culture which appeared there a decade later.

The intent therefore is not to exclude any given possibility, but to lay bare the fundamental ambiguity of the cyborg, the ‘in and for itself’ – and to take a stand on this ambiguity, to stand in the decision forced by it. What is ‘bad’ is not one side or the other, but the absence of decision; that is, when one side presents itself as the other. Also, when the ambiguity is simply allowed to conceal itself, ‘we’ may find that its decision has already been made for ‘us’, without ‘our’ being able to truly take it over.

Such is perhaps the real meaning of our lack of future horizon, or the ‘slow cancellation of the future’ remarked by Mark Fisher and others. When ‘we’ are alienated from ‘our’ own decision regarding the horizon in and through which the ‘we’ comes to be, when it seems that this decision has already been made for ‘us’, it only then appears as if there is no future and history has come to an end.

[sorry for lack of complete info re: references, I will add these later…]

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