needs more video! would love to see/hear these in action

Dan Deacon’s first UK gig was in Norwich, it was also the first time he had a VJ working with him. It was me :slightly_smiling_face: It was also my first VJ gig, with a day to prepare. Was great fun, I was mostly drunk.

7 Likes

Lopatin discuss the score for Uncut Gems (great movie!!) together with Josh Safdie in his studio

18 Likes

this is very very cool, making very good use of their gear

5 Likes

hello! i wanted to make a thread for people to post pictures, links, stories, etc. and otherwise have a place for general discussion focused on the performance aesthetic/musical output of artists who use a big plastic folding table when they play! or similar - i’d say artists who play on the floor count here too!

oddly specific perhaps, but i feel a kinship with this style personally and am fascinated by it.

a few random thoughts: i wonder if having your gear laid out in a total organized chaos which has to be painstakingly assembled before each gig and then disassembled right after lends itself to a certain type of workflow which in turn lends itself to a certain type of sound? most of the artists that i enjoy which come to mind are working in a semi-improvisational framework that’s often sonically rough around the edges - anywhere from heavily processed acoustic instruments to full-blown electronic noise.

i also wonder if the advent of, for example, more readily available ergonomic tools like pedalboards and powered pre-fab modular cases (and the associated communites which have accumulated around those tools online have led to a sort of… homogenization of the way people are thinking about these types of workflows, especially as it pertains to a live performance environment? it seems like the early 00s was really the peak tabletronics era and i think there’s a connection there.

also wondering if there are any lines members who would care to share their own music/performances if it applies to this overall aesthetic? i’m interested to see who out there is carrying the torch of this (sort of) bygone era!

a few photos attatched as examples :blush: also posting this from mobile so apologies for any formatting weirdness in this post

Yellow+Swans unnamed A-40857-001 philip-jeck-68049276-576e-48bd-afbe-3306da3b77a-resize-750

8 Likes

I love the lack of like… manufacturer loyalty here. What a hot mess this skiff is :heart_eyes: And of course, for him.

Great read. “Workaround” has been one of my favourite albums this year.

22 Likes

Actually for the academic studies for electronic music everyone is using the computer and only the computer as an instrument mostly with Pure Data or Max MSP or Supercollider or other programming environments. For them anything else than sound is a distraction, so they are not interested in gear or other elements of a live show. So there is exactly the opposite of what you think. Last few years only I see more composers using different instruments than a computer.

1 Like

I think there is a distinction between the academic study of electronic music, and music academies more generally (where people are also studying / playing traditional instruments). I believe it was the latter that was being referenced.

4 Likes

Yes I get indeed music academies are very conservative and they base their educational program on technique. So it’s understandable that they see the computer not as an instrument but as an easy way for amateurs to make sounds.

My friends are studying electroacoustic composition at music academy and they still had to choose acoustic instruments to learn during their studies so it is not 100% max msp/pure data. Some of them who are great electronic musicians even left the academy because they performed poorly on acoustic instruments. It is cool that your experiences differ but that doesn’t mean that mine are invalid.

Oh no I didn’t mean it that way! I was just sharing my experience. I do think it’s good to learn to play an instrument and to learn composition if you want to be a complete magician. It’s also a lot of fun! It can only help you develop your musicality.

Actually (…) So there is exactly the opposite of what you think.

Sorry about that, english is not my first language but this sounded to me like a negation of my experiences.
And I am aware of advantages that playing various instruments can give you (I have played guitar for a long time before I picked up electronic music more than 10 years ago) but as I said in post that you responded to this can also affect how you create electronic music and I am curious how people who don’t play any “acoustic” instruments would voice their chords etc. Maybe they would do it totally in standard way or maybe they would push music making in directions that we don’t dare to explore because our muscle memory (and other traits gained from playing acoustic instrument) moves us away from. Like for example you still have piano roll in DAWs and maybe for people “native” to electronic music something entirely different would make sense and allow other possibilities.
And I think that failing people in degree (that should be about electronic music) just because they perform poorly on acoustic instrument is an artifact of old way of thinking about music we should try to challenge.

I would like to apply to this school please.

17 Likes

haha misspelling! But a good one, right? :wink:

6 Likes

Concerning the ars magia, alchemy refers to the pure sonorous element (the inscrutable, earthly materiality of sound; the pure radiance and shine that resists or exceeds every attempt to describe or control it); kabbalah the pure and necessary, generative logics of organization and composition; and astrology the coordination between the two – the oldest ‘causal mechanism’ – the grand system of correspondences holding everything together. Each one implicates and is reflected in the others.

8 Likes

For the computer to be understood as an instrument in its own right, computing itself must first be brought forth in its own right as a medium, not simply as a representation or simulation of an existing medium.

It’s not just resistance to change, but the very idea of simulation itself where efforts seem to be lacking.

Computing in and for itself – I’ve already written a post on what this means:

In other words, we need something like the 1920’s anti-pictorialism movement in photography and this really hasn’t happened yet. Or worse , it was happening more in the 60’s through 90’s, but since, with the extreme hegemony of surveillance capitalism and all of our actual computers set up as portals to this, or basically as devices for consumption not creation, there’s been a severe falling-off, and the revolution really never got completed.

Suffice to say ‘computing in and for itself’ absolutely means code as the key functional element of instrumental practice. It should mean new and more accessible ways of code, such as physical computing and live coding etc. The keyboard/IDE or even vi/emacs are absolutely insufficient.

Above all the revival of hacking, the liberation of code from professionalized practices [self-documentation, reusability, version control], refusal of semantic software abstractions or skeuomorphism of any sort, and a renewed closeness to the hardware layer would all be important steps.

What’s good? I mentioned someone like Vera Molnar in visual art. While I didn’t mention much in music or sound, I think Gottfried Michael Koenig in the ‘Funktion’ works comes very close. But again, there’s some falling off from the main concept if computing as a medium simply refers back to music, visual art, video, or ‘interactive experience’.

Indeed, it’s depressing that the paradigmatic works are often so far in the past, being from 50 to 70 years old. It indicates that we’re in danger from being totally cut off from a very important legacy.

The computer in and for itself, as its own medium, may express itself in various derivative media, but should not take too many cues from how these media have existed thus far – just as photography is not painting, film is not theatre, and so on.

So absolutely, VST’s are out, ableton is out, many uses of max/supercollider are out though at least as programming languages they have much more potential than for what they’re being used currently. Analog/physical modeling is ‘out’, AI especially ‘out’. Something like ppooll is more ‘in’, Orca and SonicPi are ‘in’, circuit bending is in – but all this is just baby steps – the physical can and should be more a part of this.

Finally since the conversation references institutions – I hope we can acknowledge this awful trend, with well-funded institutions devoted to ‘computer music’ or ‘media engineering’ or ‘sound informatics’, in which the engineering effort is devoted 100% to training the best and brightest to work for the major tech companies and/or surveillance organizations, while the arts aspect is simply forgotten. Or that the notion of what makes an acceptable publication is that one has merely simulated something to make it cheaper or more accessible, rather than having helped bring forth a new sense of the real. Art is then simply devalued as aesthetics or decoration rather than something with a fundamentally important role in opening up new ways in which it is possible to be. Or worse, the artist is requisitioned into this system, creating things like ‘earcons’ for self-driving cars – apparently this is the way art validates itself institutionally. All this would have been absurd 50 or even 30 years ago.

‘Broader impact’ – is only interpreted in the narrowest sense of this commodification or simulation, because that’s all that is thought to be legitimate. Is it any wonder that Mark Fisher is right and we’re endlessly stuck recycling the past and our greatest worry is that we haven’t brought back the past accurately enough? Or that Kevin Kelly is right and we’re just ending up with an exact facsimile of the so-called ‘physical world’, in which a virtual world does not even function as fantasy or escape?

So while I agree that there’s too much conservatism in music, it still stands: traditional instrumental practice (say: violin practice) always was ‘in and for itself’, but computer practice always points to and seems to be ‘for’ something else. The computer will only be fully respected as an instrument when it can stand fully and completely on its own.

24 Likes

Whoa! That’s an awesome post!

I have a response… a response in the way of a piece of music I’m working on… but I’m still about 6 months from being ready to talk about it. But, I think it fits right in with this broader thinking!

I realize I’m being a bit of a tease… but this way I’ll remember to come back to this thread and post when it’s closer to ready.

6 Likes

So only binary will be acceptable then?

I find it peculiar that you use the term “acceptable” to demonize a form of institution or current practice that you seem to disagree with or oppose (at least in the context of that paragraph), and yet use terms such as “absolutely”, and “[X or Y] are out”, and “refusal” in your description of what is, essentially, acceptable in order to reach what you call Computing in and for itself.

Wouldn’t that be just another form of gate keeping? A different kind of purism? And why is abstraction bad? I assume the purpose of UI/UX is to break barriers, and the typical interaction with the computer is via coding, so why are keyboards insufficient (re: live coding) but sensors are in? In that sense, wouldn’t physical computing be considered as a form of abstraction?

I’m curious as to why computing wouldn’t be accepted as a thing in and of itself for the things that only a computer can do? And why do the form of these things need be computer-only to be acceptable? I have yet to see a violin doing a physical modeling of a violin.

I fondly remember part of a discussion in which, I think it was Elon Musk, was talking about how we’ve distanced ourselves from the machine ever since we moved to using two thumbs instead of ten fingers to communicate with it. I really appreciate these kinds of discussions, but then again I really enjoy watching Jaron Lanier videos.

2 Likes

i’m interested to see who out there is carrying the torch of this (sort of) bygone era!

I guess I think of it less as a “bygone era” and more as “still me and most of my friends”. :smiley:

4 Likes