#466

Behringer produced tools are used to create art every day. You don’t need an artisan loaf synthesizer to make an art sandwich.

Supermarket bread and artisan bread coexist in the marketplace.

This sort of thinking is part of the demonization of Behringer. He has to be the villain, so that others can be heroes and be painted in idealistic shades, as only caring about their passion and so forth. There seems to be a lack of understanding of what these tools are for, which is making music, and not for sustaining a fantasy of a artisan collective somehow operating outside the normal rules of capitalism. If you want a collective mutual aid society, these sorts of rhetorical social media games will not create one.

3 Likes
#467

putting an ethics discussion largely aside when I saw the announcement for this my first thought was about why/what the end goal really was for doing such a thing. maybe there was an antagonistic angle to it, but its not like what is basically a keyboard that has a mediocre seq in it is a signature product like the 'Brutes are, which to me would be much more obnoxious or confrontational to clone and probably not much harder. I’d imagine even at their manufacturing scale they don’t make much on that clone, and given their rep and that its not like its a major price bracket jump I think it won’t sell as well compared to a clone of something that is otherwise unavailable or for 2-5x as much. so I think the goal here really would be as @DMR basically said- to try and weasel further into a part of a market where there is a new younger generation of hungry gear buyers/users who may not know their reputation, care, or just straight up think that is how much synthesizer do/should/always have cost because within a few years you’ll have young people who knew nothing about the synth market prior to Berhinger’s arrival, or maybe after a while even that a lot of their products are clones, so its a foot in the door probably more than anything else.

as for the ongoing discussion of democratization… if you want to talk strictly hardware wise and people are interested in genuine democratization and/or actually just meaning affordability - DIY is the real democracy, going back to companies like Serge or Paia, Stanley Lunetta, or the now many small kit/project manufacturers. You can be broke as all hell and still build yourself a fantastic synth (speaking from experience). if you only have a few bucks to spare per month you can break up your purchases of picking up a PCB and panel one month, components the next, building bit by bit. sometimes its nice to have or you need special tools but most things can also be built with cheap components, a $20 iron, and almost zero electronics knowledge provided you are good at following instructions. maybe it isn’t the way everyone wants to do it- thats ok, but its there and nobody needs to wait for a company regardless of their debatable ethics to do it for them. to me that is democratic. I feel like the democratization of gear argument I see from a lot of people is actually ‘X-thing exists, it can theoretically exist cheaper, therefore I have the right to own it’.

4 Likes
#468

I always felt very awkward seeing how many people perceive capitalism as a mean to establish democracy. Democratization and capitalization are not interchangeable terms: they are two very different concepts.

There is nothing democratic in the business model discussed on this topic: redesigning conceptual meaning of words is a tricky process that serves absolutely no good.

13 Likes
#469

I can imagine the notion emerges from “voting with your wallet”. In capitalist democratic systems with large amounts of people who feel disenfranchised, it can often feel like your ability to spend money amounts to the most powerful voice you have - especially in the US where we have an, effectively, two party system. There is and isn’t truth there, depending on how you spin the prism.

In one sense, making a consumer product more available is akin to some kind of freedom-enabling. It’s not an idea I’d personally get behind, but I can see it if I spin the prism fast and squint. It’s extremely bound up in a number of complicated ethical and logical quandaries where your perspective on what is “effective politics and citizenship” gets murky very quickly when you try to take it apart, particularly in the inflexible discursive mode we’re living through.

This thread is a testament to that dance.

5 Likes
#470

My point is that musical instrument construction is not an exception, at all. The bad stuff is just hidden below the surface. The behringer made cool audio chips hiding in nearly all boutique synthesizers including Mannequins are a perfect example of this. Using something where the parts where the parts are made from slave labor is not ethically better than buying something assembled with slave labor. In fact, it is more insidious because it is place in a warm and fuzzy veneer. So no, you can’t meaningfully critique the practices without first critiquing the system that enables them.

3 Likes
#471

Ironically most of the people I know that believe capitalism is a tool towards a more democratized life style are also the ones that are against cancelling culture resulting from voting with our wallet.

4 Likes
#472

Speaking for myself, between some of the negative unforced public relations errors the company has made and their propensity for cloning (allegedly) the work of others, I can’t imagine owning something with their branding on it and not feeling weird about it, which may or may not be an arbitrary distinction on my part. THAT SAID, I would not judge anybody else for buying their products, whether due to financial concerns or an honest perception of the brand having some ineffable quality they’re drawn to.

This seems to be to point of contention, not so much whether capitalism is bad (it is) or whether the company in question is sometimes a bit MORE prickly than others in the same space (they are), but whether individual consumer choices should be moralized in this larger context (they shouldn’t) (it’s still a good discussion to have though).

3 Likes
#473

Not Behringer related and I don’t know much about this builder, but I thought this was a really thoughtful consideration of the (mostly environmental) considerations of ethical instrument building: https://northcoastsynthesis.com/news/green-modular-part-1-energy-carbon-and-power-supply-regulators/

1 Like
#474

Cancel culture Is the exact opposite of voting with your wallet. The only irony there is that you think what you said includes a contradiction

@grey providing goods and services at competitive prices is not the only freedom enabling component here. It’s also creating jobs and choices

@slowsounds im not using foxconn as the standard. I am using it as an example of something you will not boycott. Most people here have smartphones. I understand the “we can’t change how our smartphones are made but we don’t want to also allow it in our little niche synth community as well” argument. So I don’t want to keep going with semantics. I already said my problem was that people are using this as an opportunity to take the moral high ground. I see that behavior as an amalgamation of these larger seemingly innocuous attitudes about tribalism and altruistic superiority

I didn’t intend to antagonize anyone and I don’t want to sound like I know what I’m talking about. I really don’t know what kind of situations lead to employment in China or what other options they have. I was just saying maybe it’s not as clear cut as we think it is. I am willing to accept that I was probably wrong about that. I feel like I understand both sides of this argument for the most part. Or the fundamentals of both arguments. And it really is pointless to continue it. But I see something generally in these conversations that is deeply regressive and dangerous. Just the fact that I can’t open social media without seeing this fight all over the place is proof to me that some element of tribalism, how we perceive the bad guys, and what we are willing to do to prove that we are not on the side of the bad guys, are out of control

@Mangrove I also didn’t say “ there are no good choices so do nothing” and I wasn’t trying to align your opinion with mine. I was just agreeing with what you said about your buying choices not being significant in your political agenda, especially if you’re going to pick and choose which aspects of capitalism to rebel against

@karst I was reacting to the larger idea of cancelling or using some aspects of cancel culture to justify this weird anti Behringer thing. Injecting mora arguments into something where you may have alternate motivations for advocating against. But I was also highlighting the fact that we’ve gotten to a place where it’s become commonplace to say “I think you should reconsider what you said here”. Which may have just been “I would like you to think more carefully about this”. But I initially took it to mean “this could get you in trouble” over a conversation about synth clones. I really don’t want to be a boomer here. I just would like to see less of this. Particularly in non-political contexts.

But I’m done. This whole debate is ridiculous to me. Just felt like maybe it would help to point out this pattern I was seeing

#476

I all of buy this stuff (Moog, Mannequins, Behringer), but instead of wasting my energy either A. feeling bad about buying Behringer, or B. feeling good about buying boutique, I recognize these purchases as a means to an end. If there was a mass boycott organized in conjunction with other forms of action, I’d be all about it. Hell, if B’s workers are somehow form a union and go on strike, I sure as hell would boycott them. I would even donate to their strike fund.

Liberal, individualistic gestures on the internet are meaningless.

2 Likes
#477

Ethics aside, it should be stated for the record that Behringer aren’t just selling reproductions. Sometimes, yes, but other times they are different. The team that is working on the 2600 is a great team, I look forward to the results. And their TR 808, having owned both, I think it’s OK for me to say that the new one is MUCH better in all ways.
It’s complicated.

4 Likes
#478

I see the Apple-Foxconn example being dropped in here without a lot of context or historical perspective in order to support spurious arguments. The Apple-Foxconn affairs (and the “blood in your smartphone” panic that preceded them) are precisely the examples of why consumers should care about supply chain issues and should hold manufacturers accountable: the long-term result of the affair is that Apple increased their accountability checks of all their direct subcontractors (espcially Foxconn), and required that the components they use which contain tin, tantalum, tungsten and gold went through an iTRI (or similar) supply chain certification and thus are way less likely to be implicated in the black markets that funded the 2nd Congo war and continue to fund political instability in Central Africa. That’s not to say that there are no ethical problems with Apple and its products—obviously anything dependent upon extractivism has inherent problems—but to note that consumer participation does matter, and can make parts of a business’ workings run in an unambiguously more ethical way.

Having analyzed Music Tribe’s business profile and public face, this is a business that despite its large size does not appear to engage in any supply chain monitoring, that does not publish corporate social responsibility reports, strategically operates in countries where they can circumvent international agreements like iTRI, and being privately owned has no shareholder accountability. This is quite unusual for a manufacturer of their size in 2020. If their IPO ever floats, they will have some serious reckoning to do, since their current approach to PR is a shareholder’s nightmare.

23 Likes
#479

I always thought that the DSI/Peter Kirn debacles were about Behringer’s IPO. The synth stuff has got to be considered a big driver of brand equity, and criticism/bad coverage in GS and CDM threatened that. I assume that the responses were so misguided because Uli completely calls the shots and there’s no space in Music Tribe’s management culture to second guess it.

The same goes for the Swing. Supposedly, there was some sort of poll where ‘people’ wanted a Keystep-like controller. So that’s the beginning of a product development cycle so unyelding that nothing derailed it, despite the the fact that many people involved the process MUST have known this would be an embarrassment to the company.

This whole post by Uli is sorta weird (beyond saying they don’t believe in shareholder value in the first sentence!) and sorta hints at their kind of blank/valueless corporate culture.

2 Likes
#480

Who said we were talking about apple. Hell, Samsung’s entire corporate methodology was basically what Behringer does; stealing IP, flooding the market, losing lawsuits regarding said IP, having the lawsuit not matter because of their market dominance.

Again, the point I keep making is that Behringer is a symptom and not the disease. Targeted boycotts make sense, 50 people on a synth forum buying more expensive synths to make a difference in the world, just reeks of detachment from reality.

1 Like
#481

My reality is I get to choose what I buy, at least when it comes to musical equipment. I buy more expensive synths so my studio has instruments that don’t make me feel bad when I use them. That’s my reality. It’s great.

I’m sure a couple of cool audio items made there way into my eurorack. I am less ignorant now than when I bought them and will be more careful in the future.

In my world, synths are all luxury purchases. Why would I ever want to support poor business practices with my disposable income?
I have to make all sorts of compromises to live in the modern world. I’m not willing to make many compromises for a cheap version of a “vintage” analog synth.

1 Like
#482

Oh, my, this Molten Music parody is hilarious

4 Likes
#483

Food for thought:

How many of you actively investigated the ethics of synths companies before you saw Behringer obviously pushing around venerated synth designers? I have worked at a few of these companies during my early 20s, and I can tell you that in many cases the respected American companies aren’t doing much better. At one company that I’ve never seen mentioned in terms of ethics issues, none of the workers had health insurance, which in one case led med to staying home from the hospital and nearly dying, and in another having to have a tooth, which had become infected because I left it untreated so long, broken apart in my mouth and extracted in pieces when I finally found a job with dental insurance. There was major crunch around the NAMM and the people who were lucky enough to get full time hours were working late so often they started to have mental health issues resurface, issues that would have conceivably been dealt with if they had insurance. At the time I worked there, I was often thinking of the workers in china who did the actual manufacture of the equipment we made and was told things by people higher up in the company like “Well… it’s not a sweat shop.”

This was in the San Francisco Bay Area and I would often see all of the synth celebrities whose IP everyone is deeply offended that Behringer is appropriating, they would hang out and have lunch with my boss.

Years after I quit I think there was a collective push and they all got healthcare, at least.

I’m not mentioning the name of this company because 1. it’s small 2. friends still work there and depend on that income 3. it has gotten marginally better.

Another time I was interviewing for a job with one of the top eurorack manufacturers. There was some miscommunication about the time of the interview, but one of the employees came out to talk to me, and I decided against the rescheduling the interview. The conditions were worse than the place I currently worked. The guy I talked to, which was a programmer for them, seemed so stressed and worn out and I unhappy, I was really put off from buying their products.

Someone in here posted that they are now going to check that synths they buy don’t contain Cool Audio chips. Good luck with that. Most synths are not bought in person, and typically they don’t let you come at them with a screwdriver. And clearly Behringer isn’t the only one you should be looking out for in the supply chain, so make sure you clearly investigate the BOM for every piece of gear you buy, as well as your household products, and those in the products of the companies whose services you use… I’m sorry the whole attitude of consumers taking the place of government safegaurds in their purchase of equipment thing just strikes me as absurd. Again, I think a targeted boycott aimed at either investigating or addressing particular labor practices is a good thing. Being smug about buying gear that makes you feel warm and fuzzy accomplishes nothing.

13 Likes
#484

uh, but I get to feel warm and fuzzy. That’s what it accomplishes.

I’m not telling anyone else how to spend their money & I am definitely arguing against regulations.

#485

my instinct is that I very much agree with your baseline conclusion:

people patting themselves on the back because they choose to buy (re: can afford) more expensive synths made by the good people doesn’t do anything productive (and shrouds the many ways all electronics are problematic).

however,

assuming smugness on the part of people trying to have a discussion here accomplishes very little.

telling people having a conversation that they’re clearly posturing for appearances and their own sense of superiority accomplishes very little.

insisting that the you support mass boycotts or union organizing, but that a community discussing how it feels about the issue, a necessary precursor to any type of organization on the part of the customer, is useless makes no sense.

as you said, you found out negative things about a company that you had interactions and then…

…which is all this discussion is.

many people are coming to this question for the first time and most people are not career industry insiders who have grappled with this years ago and now see a greater need for more concentrated and collective action.

just for the ability to have a conversation about this, it helps to recognize that not everyone shares your context. I appreciate you providing more of that context, but I don’t enjoy your assumption of poor intentions by others.

7 Likes
#486

I’m in favour of people calling out bad companies and having the discussions that will result in useful action against them, but definitely not up for it drifting into people using it for a pretext for one-on-one social media shaming/bullying of people who openly buy/use ‘uncool’ brands

7 Likes