#238

I don’t have a real opinion on if Behringer should or should not do whatever, but with these modules I am having trouble understanding who the target demographic is for a series like this

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#239

i think they could be a solid, inexpensive expansion option for people who’ve invested in some of the more popular semimodular synths out there.

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#240

I think it’s a bit weird that even in Eurorack space Behringer has gone with cloning circuits of classic synths and riding with the name and style of an old synthesizer system. I understand the appeal of something like Minimoog clone or other classic instruments, but in eurorack they could’ve done something different, something to stand out other than just the price. Roland makes modern, analog modular synthesizers and I believe every piece of classic Roland modulars have been cloned to eurorack already. It’s just a big odd route for Behringer I think. Could it be that the margins in very bread-and-butter modules are already so thin and the volumes in eurorack still so small that they couldn’t undercut enough in basic stuff?

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#241

Well… I rarely speak, but wanted to share my profound discomfort about how positively people are commenting on the Eurorack modules video from BHRGR and their answers to “tell us what you would like to see next”. Lots of people seem to jump into the proposition without judgement. Some people want to raise Mr. B a statue as if he was any kind of saviour by bringing those old modules back on the market for the price of a grocery basket, others asking straight ripoff from current companies and not being shy to mention them precisely, others that act as excited as if they won the lottery without thinking of the consequences and responsibilities of it, etc.

This blind enthusiasm is something that speak of a profound general inability to discern the most basic current lie of that company : the illusion of giving power to the people by offering them the cheapest gear as possible. By extension, the more these products are affordable, the more they may sell and that is the only goal here. It reminds me of the frequent “take my money” anthem we find everywhere around the gear forums… This new product launch is just another tactic to push more people toward something that they would not buy if it was 4 or 5 times the price. Their judgment is clearly weakened by the price point and in the end, the company will profit as much as it can of this position of “enabler/facilitator”.

There is also this great idea of being in margin of the big corporations by launching their stuff outside of the trade show. This is so next level fake marketing, but again people seem to take it first degree and yells “hurrays!” all around the comments. Come on…

On another hand, I’m all in the idea of the democratization of music/art/knowledge and if this offers a creative opportunity to anyone, it’s all good. But it is, in my opinion and personal ethic, cutting corners to not be concerned by the real intentions behind such a “good deal” and think of the consequences of impoverishing at any cost (pun intended) gear enthusiasts.

Finally, those comments reminds me of any other fanatic discourse in their inability to discern anything else than their own reflexion, intention and preoccupation.

But, after all, who can be against panem et circences? If they are all happy, who am I to be preoccupied.

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#242

Some people want to raise Mr. B a statue as if he was any kind of saviour

This blind enthusiasm is something that speak of a profound general inability to discern the most basic current lie of that company

Finally, those comments reminds me of any other fanatic discourse in their inability to discern anything else than their own reflexion, intention and preoccupation.

But, after all, who can be against panem et circences ?

Jesus Christ. This is just character assassination of people who like Behringer’s products.

ETA: I guess what really bothers me about this is the denial of agency to Behringer’s customers. Somehow, the idea that someone could buy the things because they work for them on a musical level never enters in. I guess it’s easier to hate on Behringer if you paint their customers as unthinking fanatics. But it’s a shitty thing to do.

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#243

The presumption that Behringer is somehow cutting corners with these modules because they are $99 is based on a flawed understanding of how modern electronics manufacturing works.

Once you fire up that automated production line, assuming you have enough volume to support such a line, costs go through the floor and quality generally goes up: look at all the essentially perfect mass-produced electronic devices (software aside!) sitting around your studio, and consider how little they cost. The notion that all these other companies can do this but Behringer can’t seems a bit strange.

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#244

I understand where you are coning from with that, and I can partially agree with the intention.
I must also be aware that identical dynamics occurs equally in most of other spheres of human’s consumption habits.

#245

@tenembre

You may be right but I’m not the kind of person that read biography and cannot understand doing the line overnight for the new phone. I’m sorry, but I just can’t.

I also cannot understand comments like « I’ll put the B sticker on my car bumper because your products are awesome ». I may put a “I climbed the Mount Washington”, but this is another story, and a totally different narrative.

In the end, my comment is mostly about my discomfort in regard to the irrational enthusiasm toward that brand/company as if B did the work himself and that he was changing the rules. By asking them « what they want » it’s just another way to make them believe they have power when, after all, it’s just plain capitalism. When I read « that’s a company that listen to the customer » it’s just another proof that the marketing is working beyond wonder. People would be speaking about Steve Jobs and Apple products, I would say the same thing. Microsoft, same. Heinz, same.

If we were talking about independent Eurorack companies/makers for example, I would possibly have a different discourse. Why? For many reasons. One among the others : they did the work themselves. Do it entitle them to have some cult following? Well… I personally don’t think so, but it’s my opinion. On the other hand, I would be a bit less uncomfortable with people being overly excited about their modules. I’m more than often excited about MN products, IME modules, etc.

In the end, my digression is much more about a general portrait about consumerism than a precise company. I did not talk about the build quality, the legitimacy of clones and any other subject.

BTW, I own B products. I also have a phone, a Shared System, a folding bike and only drink one brand of coffee. But I would not say something like « take my money! » before looking carefully at what I’m buying. That may just be me.

@Mattb

And this is my exact point over the last paragraphs. It’s just happening in this precise situation, but my comment would be the same toward any « good deal » coming from any company in any field.

There is, I’m convinced, always a price to pay for a good deal. Sometimes we decide to conciously/deliberately pay for it, other times we just don’t know or don’t want to.

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#246

I expect Cold Mac will be safe…

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#247

I think that a lot of enthusiasm can come from the fact that for people from poorer countries difference in price between for example moog model D and behringer model d is not few months of savings but few years. So Behringer not only made it cheaper it made it possible for them to own something which is percieved as a top of the top when it comes to analog synthesis. The need to own it is probably more due to the cult of status of moog than the actual sound but I think given how people are bombarded constantly with messages like „you need to own that to sound really good, nothing sounds like moog” in globally available media (like youtube) it is expected that they will try to have it for a fraction of a price.
For example when I was growing up and playing guitar I knew that Fenders and Gibsons are way to go but reallisticaly I (or any of my friends) couldn’t afford it, so we all played cheap knockoffs. Yet everywhere in music videos etc we saw Telecasters, Les Pauls etc. So we constantly had an urge to own such guitars but didn’t had any means to have one so any knockoff that came close to the look and a sound for a fraction of a price was cherished by us. And if somehow someone managed to own original Fender or Gibson it was so much of a status symbol that puting stickers on bumper that you own such guitar wouldn’t be weird because it was much harder to attain such guitar than climb the mountain.
I don’t know if I made myself clear but basically I think that due to global media the urges to own gear are the same around the world but the means to fill them are not equal.

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#248

@karol

You made it clear and you have a good point. I also wished, when I was younger, to be able to put my hands on Moog, Gibson, Akai MPC, and other premium brands. In the end, when I obtained some of them, I realized that the music I made with them was virtually the same. It was maybe easier to make it and the pleasure/excitement to play with those instruments was evidently different, but it maybe came at the cost of loosing a part of the charm and creativity of limitations.

For status symbols, you are again right. It is much cooler to have a Fender sticker on an expensive SUV or pickup truck than a Mount Washington sticker on a rusty old subcompact. To me it’s cooler to live things than to own things and that is what I meant by using the bumper sticker image.

Those two points are exactly what made me sad and uncomfortable while scrolling through the YT comments. On top of that, the fact that the company use those feelings as a marketing argument and feed it right back at those customers is making it just worst.

Again, they are not the only one feeding people with concepts like “democratization of consumer products”, “affordable copies offers the same user experience as the original” and “we listen to you”. I’m just always impressed how simple it is to manipulate the consumer into thinking that those concepts are realistic facts. That may be a reason why we see so many filters or oscillators comparison on YT between the original unobtainable thing and the affordable readily available new one. In the end, most of the time, they indeed sound the same. Does the experience is the same? I can’t say, but I doubt.

Finally, is there a difference between the fetishization of Hendrix’s guitar sound and the sequence/arpeggiator found on Dark Side of the Moon? I don’t think so. I just think that the companies over saturated the market with guitar stuff and now they needed to “reinvent” themselves to continue to sell us merchandise. Many people are now in the market for synths, so why not just make them.The growth is the core here.

It may just be me being nostalgic of a time where we had to deal more intelligently with our pulsions. The comparison that comes to my mind is when we were shooting pictures and had to wait before we could see them. Polaroid were an alternative, but we knew it was not the exact same thing. Was it a better time because of lack of immediacy? Not necessarily, but we were dealing with it. Now, in the comfort of my home, I can buy all those toys right away and deal with the consequences later. I may be able to get “that sound” but I will inevitably pay the price.

Finally, part of that flourishing “new market” for affordable copycats also comes from speculation and inflation for the old scarce gear… but that is another subject.

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#249

what makes me uncomfortable is that i honestly can’t find any of the blind enthusiasm for these products you mention here. people are quite measured and rational about it, unless I’m missing something.

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#250

the implication that internet comment thread participants could do with being more negative about behringer clones has blown my mind :smiley:

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#251

I believe @lcsp is directly referencing the YouTube comments from the “Introducing System 100” video- the bumper sticker thing, “lol every other eurorack company is fucked lol,” and other types of…enthusiasm are there.

Not that I’d ever advise reading YouTube comments.

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#252

Maybe the point here – and I’m being sincere, not snarky – is to not ever read YouTube comments. You’ll quickly become a misanthrope if you do that. As for “changing the rules” – yes, I think Behringer is changing the rules, in that the big companies could easily do what Behringer is doing (low-cost versions of beloved discontinued products) but for whatever reason they choose not to.

Anyhow, I very much support Behringer for bringing these instruments down to a reasonable price that normal human beings can afford. Who is actually buying Moogs? Certainly not me or anyone I know. I don’t have that kind of money and probably never will. To put it bluntly, there’s an obvious class factor to the Behringer hatred: well-off musicians pay loads of money for status symbol instruments that the vast majority of people will never be able to afford, and Behringer is blowing up that paradigm. More power to them.

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#253

It seems like Behringer fully entering the game represents the point where Eurorack finally, and inarguably is a “market” where capitalist / consumerist forces prevail. It’s no longer our weird little bubble that’s primarily influenced by a few weird passionate makers and users. Honest question, do any other Eurorack manufacturers even have investors expecting a return on their investment?

For a lot of people I imagine Eurorack has been there for a while, but this feels like a tipping point that can’t be ignored. Even when bigger brands like Roland and Arturia have dabbled in the eurorack market it’s felt like their products have been created very much “on our terms” if that makes any sense. Behringer has been very honest and open about wanting to disrupt this space.

I think just about everyone has seen a hobby of theirs, or perhaps a particular company involved in a hobby, or maybe even an individual artist bow to market pressure and lose its magic in the process, so I understand why this is prompting such polarizing emotional reactions.

I am trying to empathize with the audience that see this as a victory but I’m having hard time with it. I suppose it’s people who see Eurorack as unnecessarily expensive as a by-produce of elitism, rather than expensive as a byproduct of its small scale. Maybe this isn’t fair but to me it just feels entitled. Like people see something like the Morphagene or Clouds and completely ignore the scale or economic realities of small shops like Make Noise and just “want it now” for half the price and don’t understand why they can’t have it.

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#254

It’s pedal specific, but here’s Josh Scott’s (JHS Pedals) take on Uli’s stompboxes:

Edit: He did an episode on clones in general, too:

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#255

Sorry for not quoting my source.

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#256

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#257

AFAIK Behringer has no plans to clone Make Noise or Mutable modules, and I would have an ethical problem if they did so. Those modules are within the price range of normal human beings so I think that’s a different argument. Many of the instruments cloned by Behringer are prohibitively expensive on the secondary market; that doesn’t describe small Eurorack companies, who are producing modules at reasonable prices.

1 Like