#298

The other unified factor is the hype that is consciously created by manufacturers and distributers of the instruments (modular community is actually not the worst sector of the industry in that sense) and supported by the members of community. It’s actually somewhat hilarious (and sad) how the ‘influencers’ and the community itself is supporting and building the hype around certain products. Thats also why many younger ppl entering into the game suddenly feel that the Model D or Music Easel is something they absolutely need for the creative endeavour. Even in this forum and in this thread ppl are referring some 40-50 year old design as something ‘real’, desirable and demand ‘democratic access’ to this rather ancient technology. Behringer of all the companies understands this community generated hype extremely well and now they are using it as economical vehicle for their own benefit.

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#299

@tehn
You hit the nail on the head 100%. In 2020, one would think planned obscolescence should not be a problem anymore in this industry, but I only see it getting worst and more like every other kind of electronic device industry, and society so much more consumerist…

But back to the behringer, and why they’re so successful, it’s gear so cheap that there’s no real expectation of it working properly or having longevity. Like the poster above who had problems with a Behringer mixer, It’s so flimsy that most people don’t bother complaining. I’m talking against myself, I do the same, but I’m focusing on only buying much less, and only buying things with a minimal reliability and from a maker whose attitude can I relate to.

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#300

For some it’s not Behringer gear that is cheap it’s Moog that outrageously overpriced. And there was really good point that while companies like Moog don’t want to work at that pricing point why blame Behringer for doing that. Actually while we are at that, I don’t see major synth manufacturers innovating the field much these days. So they all contribute to this collective retro synth fetish.

As for Behringer eurorack, I think garage shops are absolutely safe in that most of them already try to innovate, and garage shops trying to do another basic envelope generator just should not create more entropy :slight_smile:

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#301

I largely agree with you, except to ask who decides what price point is fair… do the people complaining about the price of a Moog understand what it takes to make one? Or are they simply thinking “I want it and I can’t afford it, so it’s too expensive.” There is obviously a middle-ground, but between the design time, custom fabrication, build quality, and labor costs, these things add up.
Ferrari make very expensive high-performance machines. Custom carbon fiber, small-batch manufacturing, hand-sewn interior, attention to detail. Does that make it “too expensive” for the people who can’t afford it? It’s lavish and probably ludicrous, but I’m not going to smear them for it. (Not saying you’re doing that.) But it’s a luxury item.
Behringer is making a car that tries to look mostly like a Ferrari, built on cheap frames they make themselves, and say they’re bringing Ferrari to the masses. A Berrari, if you will. I won’t drive one. Give me a stable, reliable and affordable car (oscillator).
I understand the privilege of this position, and the translation of this idea to the postcolonial clusterfuck that my ancestors and their peers contributed to. That’s another story and I’m deeply unhappy about it.
All I’m saying is that if I’m going to champion access to affordable music gear, I’m going to try and make sure that the people who toil and save are able to buy something that will last, not something designed specifically to extract their resources.

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#302

This analogy is a thing of beauty and I thank you for this wonderful portmanteau.

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#304

I’ve been using behringer pedals and mixers for feedback-based harsh noise for over many years, haven’t had any pedals fail (tho one I bought never worked at all and had to be returned) and only had problems with the mixers because I used to end most live sets by throwing all my gear on the floor :smiley: even then they never completely stopped working

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#305

I’d argue that Moog have worked on their price point aplenty. The value:cost for the Matriarch far exceeds the earlier Voyager, for example (the Voyager was the same price or more expensive than the Matriarch, and it was released 20 years ago). I’d also argue that the Matriarch is a great innovation, as is their Subsequent line in producing a synth sound unlike their vintage units.

Also, can we not just be OK with prices? Whenever we aim to lower prices drastically, it results in a loss of quality of life for the labourers who made the piece in question. My hometown is turning into a ghost town precisely because of this desire to “work at that pricing point.”

That said, I’m also not interested in shaming people for purchasing Behringer products either. There are so many people on Earth who are trying to get by on very little, and I understand someone’s desire to get involved on the budget they have. Moreover, there are some units that are only being revitalized by Behringer, which means it’s of relatively little harm to the original manufacturer. And finally, while they mostly clone, a few of their units (Deepmind, Neutron, and even the Poly D) do bring some new ideas to the table.

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#306

Onwards and upwards…

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#307

Thanks for that great insider perspective, @wheelersounds. I feel like you put into words how I’ve been thinking about this issue. It might be redundant to say but I’ve also been very concious for a while now of trying to make sure I pay the true price for things - meaning, if the price of something is so low that I think someone along the way is getting stiffed I’ll avoid the purchase.

Of course it is tremendously difficult to assess this, a product being cheap does not necessarily mean it’s bad. I’m thinking mostly of the environment and of the human and sustainability cost. And conversely, a product being expensive and exclusive might just be the result of a gross profit somewhere along the chain.

I feel like this is one of the strength of smaller operations, who often sell direct to the consumers. Much easier to have a real insight into the actual cost of the product and know where your money goes.

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#308

What some of the people romanticizing the garage operation might want to think about is that the garage operation isn’t going to produce anything in volumes high enough to service anything but the smallest and most elite markets.

Don’t believe me? Ask yourself why so many Eurorack makers have a difficult time keeping product in stock. They would make and sell more if they could! But you see the batch numbers posted by some of them, and it’s in the 50-100 module range … and then you realize they need to make $100/each profit to just keep the lights on and live a reasonable lifestyle. Almost the worst thing that could happen to them is to have a “hit” module: they’d go broke trying to scale up these inefficient processes.

I’ve built and sold maybe 100 modules in my time in Eurorack, and I have a few friends in meatspace who are current or former module makers–I’m very sympathetic to the challenges and the fact that for most it is a labor of love. But trying to say that a garage operation is more noble than a professionally run manufacturing concern and that somehow the sole operator is more deserving of a living than the production manager at, say, Behringer Roland is rather difficult to defend.

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#309

yes, here is a small scale modular manufacturer from Canada working with pack’n’place machine in 2017 and 2018


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#310

synth-manufacturers
synth-manufacturers960×790 48.6 KB

budget-synth-lovers

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#311

This is a straw man, people don’t dislike Behringer because they are large, or because they mass produce electronics. There are many other large music electronics manufacturers that don’t generate the same amount of derision. People dislike Behringer because of their business practices, and how the company has operated since the 90s. If Behringer was a 1-person operation operating as they do I think people would still dislike them for the same reasons.

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#312

Fine, you picked one word out of three paragraphs. :smiley:

Now edited, do you have any comments about the garage operation vs mass production?

#313

I have: It’s worth defining by what values do you consider some effort to be noble or not. I see it as noble to stick your neck out and do original research and create a new product, or improve on an existing one enough to assert itself on the market. Garage = more hits fewer misses, from what I’ve seen, I’m enjoying. Maybe half the point is not to produce in volumes. Sounds about right on a planet that needs a break.

#314

People bring up the environmental impact of Behringer’s affordable hardware, but if these products didn’t exist, is there any particular reason to believe that what would be consumed instead would have less impact?

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#315

The overall idea is that you would consume more if it breaks. For example if you have to buy two mixers instead of one because one would break. It’s actually more complicated but thats the general idea.

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#316

To add - if it breaks and there is nowhere to get it fixed. This is (in my experience) something larger euro manufacturers are good with, and this shows responsibility.

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#317

Uli eats DevilFish

http://www.firstpr.com.au/rwi/dfish/behringer-unauthorised/

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#318

Has Behringer ever done anything innovative? Like, is there something in the Crave, Neuron, or Deepmind that’s unique to those synths, that other manufacturers might look at and think it’s an idea worth borrowing? Maybe their mixers or guitar pedals or controllers have done something unlike anyone else?

1 Like