#428

They difference here is that soon after the outcry Arturia reached out to Emilie and they patched things up.

Behringer is doing the exact opposite.

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#429

Somehow I knew you’d be replying to this :wink:

“He Man Behringer Haters Club” is not a serious phrase. It’s a reference to a Little Rascals short which used to show regularly on American television. It’s probably on youtube.

This thread has been mostly civil. If you want to read actual hate, check out the Reddit threads on this subject, complete with accusations of Behringer using slave labor, and anyone not joining in on the public shaming being immediately downvoted.

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#430

In my opinion, Behringer’s anti-semitism qualifies as “actual hate,” not Reddit threads.

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#431

How long is it until they clone one of their own products out of spite? Anyone want a Behringer Model-E?

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#432

That Behringer is antisemetic is highly debatable. Pushing that as established fact - as if they’re nazis - is a hate mob tactic. Please stop.

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#433

Behringer has called it’s mother company Music tribe. I think that’s how we should understand their behaviour. To a segment of the market they are perceived as Robin Hood. And Behringer are now serving this segment further with a free marketplace (for used gear) and a free Daw. They are decidedly anti-establishment and don’t operate according to the old rule book.

I think it’s symptomatic that we ask ourselves “Can they do that?” regarding Swing and that New York Times has had a similarly named podcast for the last four(?) years. There are similar mechanism at play.

#434

for some reason, this was like the most requested clone product from the public. so the lesson is that the public can’t be trusted to make their own decisions.

i don’t hate behringer. i think it’s cool that they provide people that aren’t rich the ability to use the same tools as the elite record label musicians. and entrepreneurship/the free market is a good thing. i also don’t believe that anyone really thinks that the kirn thing was meant to be anti-semetic. seems like a willful ignorance scenario that fits their confirmation bias and justifies their hatred of the company. the joke was “cork sniffer”, thus the cartoonishly exaggerated nose. nothing else about that is jewish unless you want to say jewish people are snobs or classist. since when do we side with media or critics? uli isn’t selling snake oil, he’s making affordable recreations of otherwise impossible to get gear.

i just don’t understand why there was a demand in the first place. it’s not a great midi controller. maybe as far as keyboards go, but even then there are things like komplete kontrol, alesis, m audio, novation. so many. not to mention like actually interesting ones like push and apc40, polyseq or the many other affordable akai products. i would have understood like a cheap alternative to the cocoquantus or the monome grid maybe. something really out of reach for those without $1000 laying around for a piece of studio gear. i guess its like $30 cheaper than a new keystep? and the keystep pro has features that this one doesn’t have at all. so who is buying this? also it looks like shit

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#435

In my opinion the antisemitism was completely unintentional. However that’s as inexcusable as if it were deliberate. If a massive commercial company’s founder and handful of social media managers are going to play silly 4chan games they absolutely should have better internet literacy than to unwittingly copy one of the biggest racist memes around

OK forget what I said earlier about not being able to get excited about a midi controlller, I’d actually love a smaller version of that thing. Preferably one where the knobs don’t snap off in my bag on the way to the gig too

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#436

see, you did it again. Accused (or at the very least least implied) a member here of using a “hate mob tactic”.

Why do you care if someone criticizes Behringer for they way they operate?

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#437

Behringers hyper-capitalism is as disgusting as it gets. One of the worst companies out there, a real life Bond villain. I think at this point they just make clones like the Keystep for the fun of it, just to make fun of others.

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#438

Can’t agree with you. One is a mistake, the other is hatred. Huge difference.

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#439

Aside from the ethics of their business practices, I don’t understand from a musical/artistic perspective any of the appeal of their clone synth knockoffs—just as I don’t understand (again, from a musical/artistic perspective) vintage synth mania. (I do understand vintage mania and knockoff clones as an outcome of hoarding culture and GAS, but hoarded instruments aren’t used for music).

As a musician, my best instrument purchasing experiences are either when I’ve met makers and been able to provide input into what I want in an instrument that results in a custom-built instrument that I know will help me achieve artistic aims, or when I “meet a maker” (pun intended) who has a unique design philosophy that harmonizes with artistic aims I have. In either case, the design is not arbitrary! And, double bonus, I can help support the living of an actual instrument designer, who will hopefully continue to innovate in design and push musical instrument design forward to unexplored realms. Yes it costs money—saving up pennies and a partial ramen diet can go a long way :grinning:

Music Tribe has no design philosophy, no artistic vision, no innovation, and apparently lacks the ability to filter whether decisions a random hodgepodge of designers in the past made were design decisions that should be replicated in the present—or not. To me, that’s just a recipe for anxiety! And there are plenty of affordable new mass-market instruments; the Korg Volca and -logue series for example are beautifully designed.

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#440

just to reiterate, they made the Kirn in response to…him writing an article about them suing GS users for criticizing them on the internet.

I can’t see how anyone can take the side of a company that would take this thread into court if they could.

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#441

As somebody without a ton of money to spend on instruments, the draw of a tactile instrument with decades of tutorials and patches from which to learn for a relatively small sum of money cannot be overstated. Sure, I’d like a Subharmonicon, but I can either spend a year’s musical budget on that or a few months’ on a Boog, a Neutron, or what have you.

This is a problem I see pretty frequently with the “support small business” and “support original makers” mentality - nobody takes into account the fact that the markup is almost never reasonable. It’s rarely, “Oh hey, I could buy this cheap knockoff or save up 25% more to get the real thing.” - it’s frequently, “Well, I could buy this knockoff/mass-market option and feel a bit icky but start enjoying it now, or I could save up double or triple that amount just for the feeling of satisfaction in supporting local/small business.”

I’m not defending Behringer here, mind you, this is just an aspect I rarely see discussed - clones and mass-market products are rarely just a little cheaper, like in the case of the Keystep clone mentioned above; instead, they’re frequently half, a third, or even a quarter the price of the “real” thing, like the case of a Boog vs. a genuine Model D, or even the $15/lb coffee beans from my local roaster vs. the $9/lb “artisanal” beans I can get from Trader Joe’s or, god forbid, the $5/lb bulk 2-5lb bags of coffee I can get from Costco.

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#442

This is an interesting perspective. My thought process has been “if it’s not an original/oem why not just use one of the many brilliant vst’s with a controller” but I can see the tactility of a cloned hardware design being more useful/enjoyable when learning existing patches.

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#443

Thanks Ben; as I mentioned, I feel (this is just me talking about my own take and not intended to be anything more than that) that the Korg volca series is the 2010s equivalent to the 303s, 808s, etc of the 1980s, and they’re less expensive than a boog. Myself, I’d rather have a Volca Modular than either an original, reissue, or cloned minimoog! Fortunately “being designed by Tatsuya Takahashi” doesn’t automatically mean that it’s going to be an expensive instrument.

In Eurorack land, I can’t myself afford many of the new fancy eurorack modules, but it so happens that some of the most interesting modules can be DIYed for a very affordable price (quite a bit less than $100 all in per module) from NLC, zlob, Yusynth and other maker/designers. I’m learning a ton about synthesis I wouldn’t have otherwise trying to figure out “why did andrew put that diode there.”

I continue to find the series of youtube videos by Adamski A to be very inspiring, too. A recent performance on his self-designed, homebuilt synth:

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#444

If you love the EDP Wasp, there aren’t many easy ways to get and original. Second hand averages around 2-3k on Reverb, plus keep in mind dodgy CMOS chips from the 80s that might effect the sound or performance of the synth. If you’re in the position to take that kind of risk maybe you will, but I think outside of a professional studio it’s a big investment.

Or you could drop 200, for a Wasp Deluxe and calculate well, everything said above in this thread related to Behringer. Maybe it leaves a bad taste in your mouth, or maybe you don’t care, or maybe it turns you off completely.

Or you could try out the numerous and usually free Wasp VSTs/Sample packs (Stinger, Da Hornet, Wasp from Mars etc) but then again you loose out on the tactile experience or maybe have negative feelings about emulation/sampling? There are some very low cost nice midi controllers (16n, NanoKontrol, SQ-1, Keystep) that are in the range of an amateur musician and might help bring back some of that vintage tactile feeling.

Third option, the one I went for was the DIY route. Jasper, is a beautiful well documented DIY project, that faithful recreates the feel and vibe of the synth and adds things like MIDI control, other well known mods. It’s also the creation of a single artist, and the price of the kit directly contributes to the continuation of their work. This path does require some basic electronics knowledge, tools, and a significant investment of time but then that brings with it more experience and tools you can use on other projects.

There are many passion projects recreating vintage synths, like the poly synth Ambika, SH-101 clone Gilbert, 303 clone x0xb0x, 808 clone System 80, Arp 2600 clone TTSH, or the Prophet clone Prophet2021. Of course there are Behringer clones of all of these synthesizers too. All I can say is do your research, consider not just the synth but the experience of owning (or maybe building one!) it, and who your investment benefits.

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#445

As far as behringer are concerned l think the outrage really just plays into what they want. I do see a lot of arguments for/against behringer products that really are entirely the result of individuals’ differing political/moral beliefs. It’s no secret that polarization of beliefs is quite rampant, and middle ground here is fleeting. Here are four arguments I don’t think really get to the heart of this debate:

  1. Accessibility: They do increase the availability of certain instruments via clones, which I think many would agree is a positive. Not everyone who wants to play with synths has the resources to be building rigs that others in the community are able to.

  2. Quality: Behringer instruments are often argued to be lower quality. Arguably, the buyers understand that you get what you pay for, and aren’t necessarily interested in the longevity of their products 5+ years out. Humans are quite prone to immediate gratification.

  3. Legal: It’s hard to speculate on legal matters… so much grey area here. I’m not a lawyer, and neither are many of the company’s potential customers. So long as the company can maintain most of it’s products without major damage, they’ll probably be fine, and the company clearly believes they may benefit from accepting some degree of legal risk. This will probably continue.

  4. Labor: I think the conditions of the workers creating behringer instruments is really hard to make an argument for or against. Apple recently has been lobbying against efforts to stop forced labor in foreign countries, and there’s a lot of people who still use iPhones. A sad reality, but this argument really comes down to differing ethical tolerances.

What I do think the Behringer argument comes down to is the company’s advertising/tone/Uli X factor.

  1. Advertising/Tone: the company’s actions are aggressive, seemingly on purpose. Intellectual property from others is clearly used liberally. Some see this as a “robinhood” story, taking synths from rich snobs and making them available to all. Others see it as tacky, unoriginal, and parasitic. With lots of attention to be gained via social media through controversy in 2020, I think the company will continue to take these risks (korn/ forum lawsuits/ etc). I think this proportionally increases the risk of alienating more and more of the Behringer supporter base, as we have seen in recent developments. I view this as unsustainable, and think that at some point this reputational risk will become too large.

  2. Uli X Factor. Uli is clearly a proponent for unfettered capitalism when it benefits him. He does seem to have some traits that make him a successful businessman, though he doesn’t seem stable enough to uphold this over the long term. His behavior seems erratic at times and I think even his most ardent supporters, over time, will see the cracks in this facade. People not liking you is not good for business.

What should we do?

Vote with your dollars. And stop wasting attention on those who do not wish to unite the community. Accessibility is important, but this does not need to come with the baggage that Behringer brings to the table. Consumers can demand better. I liked some alternative options shared by others above, if one cannot afford an instrument that they don’t stand behind ethically, a computer+ cheap midi controller is probably an even better option anyways.

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#446

Well yes it’s different but what I mean is they don’t get let off the hook just because it was unintentional, especially when the context was so mean-spirited. On the other hand yeah, this discussion is not going to be helped by people parroting third-hand “BEHRINGER ARE ANTISEMITES!!” whenever the topic comes up forever.

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#447

I agree, they deserved a public shaming for that particular moment. They really need to be leaving journalists alone. It’s a horrible look and no one wants to cringe when they look at their gear. I guess my position is, if one is to engage in public shaming, be responsible about it. That’s kind of a weird concept to me, a responsible public shaming, but this is a weird world.

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