#44

Ok thanks.

Chinese working conditions… I don’t believe one factory exists to a level it needs to. No excuse if it’s happening but that argument needs to be levelled at everyone using components built in China.

Shame they don’t create something new. Or go the cheap Dreadbox module path.

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#45

I suppose none of us here own guitars made by manufacturers other than Fender or G&L that look an awful lot like a Strat or Tele but were made cheaply elsewhere?

Ok, good, just making sure :nerd_face:

But in all seriousness, while I don’t love what Behringer is doing across the board, it’s by no means unique to them. Which doesn’t make it ok. Which is why I try to buy the real thing as often as possible. But I also own a model d. It’s complicated.

My next drink is for you, Leo. No one understands like you do.

(FWIW, I agree with many viewpoints on this thread. I just also have a philosophy degree and like playing devil’s advocate)

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#46

I’m all for Behringer cloning devices that the original company no longer makes or refuses to make (looking at Roland!). I don’t see why they needed to do an MS-20 and Arp remake. A total waste of time when Korg’s versions are affordable and well made. I hope they go forward with a Synthi as those are pretty much out of reach for most people.

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#47

That’s a really good point. I wish they (or someone) would do a true Juno clone. The MS-20 mini is perfect and reasonably priced.

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#48

Long live Uli! Roland gives us pricey software simulacrums while Uli gives us the real thing.

Of the big name companies, only Behringer and Korg are doing anything that interests me (and this very much includes Moog).

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#49

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about the dozens of Mutable Instruments clones (some of which are not micro, but straight up versions of the original MI models) or companies for example like Aion Modular?

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#50

i’m not a fan of behringer and their practices but…

can’t they just make a synthi clone already!?!

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#51

I fear that this will be the one that I can’t possibly turn down. If word of the KARP 2600 is true then I’ll go down that route at some stage in the future rather than Behringer’s reported unit, but a Synthi/VCS3 will be impossible to resist

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#52

I have some hot takes on that subject.

  1. someone builds a clone for fun/experience and sells it: fair play to them.

  2. micro clones: fair play

  3. straight up MI clones (Clouds notwithstanding do to being discontinued) sold to undercut MI: not that cool but also not a big deal imo. As long as they aren’t being sold as OEM I don’t really have a big problem with it.

I actually feel good about supporting DIY euro builders no matter what they make because it’s a very important corner of the format.

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#54

could not agree more.

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#55

I was very careful during editing to say “big name” companies. Moog probably has as many people (when you include overseas contractors, which I do in this case) working on analog synths as Behringer.

As for the rest of the copycat pearl clutching, we would not have the present synth renaissance without rampant and unapologetic copying of any and all in- or out-of-production synth designs–including outright appropriation of model numbers, graphics, and use of the original companies’ names (defunct and otherwise) in the ad copy!! Go look at Modulargrid and tell me with a straight face that Uli is wrong when he says everyone does it.

Mackie brought a bully lawsuit against underdog Behringer, and I remember it well. They deserved to lose. ARP was sued for patent infringement for their filter, and now we revere the infringing units instead of calling them evil–the list is nearly infinite since people have been cribbing data sheet designs, Electronotes, and each other’s ideas from day one. A quick look at the history of various companies’ lawsuits will reveal that at one time or another most companies have been involved, “good guys” and “bad guys” alike.

The consumer wins by having more choices, and we have more people working on these instruments today than ever. I fail to see the problem.

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#56

I should add here that the original intention of copyright and patents was to encourage authors and inventors to release their work to the public–what we now call the “public domain”. That has been perverted over time into government enforcement of effectively perpetual monopolies, which is ten times more “ick” than what we’re talking about here.

Happy New Year, everyone–this shouldn’t be taken as an invitation to combat. :slight_smile:

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#58

I personally have no problem with any of the afromented, I am however occasionally baffled at what appears to me as a very fluid shift of values, depending on what company we are talking about.

Not implying that was the caee with Oscillatour post, to which I replied to.

Other companies are doing exactly the same, and I believe that if we had to cast judgement based on actual values, then size of the company should not matter at all.

#59

Weird, one of @zebra’s posts disappeared.

It’s worth pointing out that Mackie sued in the UK and lost there, too:

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff73860d03e7f57ea9d3a

The British Chancery judge pointed out that Mackie didn’t have a leg to stand on with regard to designs expressed as schematics (not PCB artwork, which I believe was asserted in the missing post–that is definitely covered by copyright) in the USA, which all parties knew or should have known before designing the original products. This is enshrined in US IP law because it leads to interoperability.

I will bet money Mackie’s legal counsel knew this but proceeded anyway.

#60

Sorry for the bit of off-topicness :

People who design alternate versions of MI modules add something new, which I think is good. Even though it goes in a very different direction in terms of ergonomy compared with Emilie Gillet’s design goals :).

People who just make cheaper copies of existing modules currently being manufactured by MI are taking advantage of a very generous designer, in my opinion. But that’s within the licence chosen by MI so while it doesn’t bring anything new, it’s sort of ok.

The best bits of the open source nature of MI modules that I can see is for example Whimsical Raps using a modified version of the MI audio bootloader for modules firmware updates.

Regarding all this, beyond legal issues the important thing is respect : that’s where Behringer really falls short. As mentioned above, they even sue original creators of things they copy when it suits theｍ… They could afford to do collaborations or things like that if they chose to.

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#61

Are you talking about Alan R P being told to discontinue his filter and then finding an alternative method of performing the same function (which subsequently went on to be lauded in its own right by all and sundry - including Bob Moog)? I wouldn’t really say that the two situations are comparable, personally, but to each their own (and happy new year!)

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#63

While I can agree with some of the things you are saying, I cannot take the respect part seriously if we point the finger For example at Behringer, but are totally fine with companies like AION, who did indeed copy functionality AND aesthetic from Moog.and claimed to be the original in one of their latest ads.

Yet you see people complaining how Crave is a copy of M32.I just find it absurd.

#64

I don’t like ruining the party but no matter how much you like Behringer (for the record: I don’t) it seems a little confused to berate them and their business practices without addressing the topic of capitalist market economy as a whole.
So what is left is either the option to question capitalism as a whole, and that includes any and all partaking stakeholders no matter how big or small or ethical or whatnot. Or to accept that this economic model is based on exploitative practices and competition, which in return leads to preferential models of market positioning. In the eyes of M. Porter, your “favourite” American economic theorist, Behringer have simply chosen the model of ultimate “price leadership” as their business model and that requires a pretty aggressive stance towards ones competitors, otherwise the resulting small margins won’t cut it. That’s nothing to feel sympathetic about or hail as a great feat, it is simply a reality in the capitalist order. There is no such thing as “good” or “bad” capitalism. It’s two sides of the same coin, and that coin is what needs to be abolished in my humble opinion. (Because what constitutes “good” or “bad” business practices lays, unfortunately, in the eye of the beholder.)

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#65

I think it’s entirely valid to critique a single actors behavior within an economic system and to modify your behavior within that system accordingly to support the kinds of behavior you want to encourage.

demanding all or nothing critiques remove the ability to have meaningful conversations about economic interaction and, while you might argue that those conversations aren’t sufficient or far-reaching enough, they actually can be a consideration in someone’s behavior today.

not much of a fan of Behringer’s business practices and that’s even without much weight given of the morality of cloning other people’s inventions.

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#66

The hard (and boring) part of discussions like this, whether they’re about musical equipment or coffee grinders or whatever, is that, for the most part, people simply retreat to their ideological camps and keep doing what they’ve been doing. Most of the arguments here ultimately reduce to “I like this” or “I don’t.” Which is fine.

Actually, it might be slightly different than that. It might be “I don’t like this” vs “yeah me either but I don’t have the scratch for the real thing.” with a few dashes of “this is fine, get over it” thrown in along the way.

As several have suggested, the major bummer regarding the position of “company x behaves badly and therefore is bad and so I stand in judgment of them” is that, as the argument scales up, it’s ultimately a critique of The System, which is well and good, but hard to implement on one’s own. The System is big and hairy and has long tentacles; it affects me in ways I do not comprehend. I participate in it unknowingly. I take ethical stances against it while wearing cheap garments produced by it. Etc.

What I can actually do, the best lever I can pull, is to vote with my money. And that is something I do quite regularly in the music arena. I do my best to buy handmade products built in the country that I live in (not bc of Nationalism; bc it involves the shortest journey).

But I also recognize that this ethical position is a position of privilege. Had I no expendable income, I could not avail myself of it. This is the main problem with trying to behave oneself inside of capitalism- it’s most feasible when the system has already rewarded you. At which point there’s little incentive To behave. A nefarious hook.

I don’t know how to fix it other than to vote with my dollars. And I am going to need a second cup of coffee before I have any better ideas.

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