Doesn’t it though? There are many industries where large corporations are treated differently in the eyes of the law and regulators alike. Should those with more resources be held more accountable? Is that not in the public interest?

EDIT: I don’t want to delete my comment but don’t really want to wade too deep into the discussion either. To be clear, we are talking about musical instruments and not life saving medicines or the national/global impact of banking practices. I would sum up my overall opinion in that I generally don’t like clones - if someone else cloned it, then why not do it myself and avoid lining someone else’s pocket (when they likely don’t really deserve it). I don’t buy them. Won’t say I never will, but hasn’t happened yet. There are brands I avoid because of this - Behringer is one of them but even I have a couple Behringer pieces (no synths, just run-of-the mill studio hardware).

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I think there are a few different viewpoints here which are confusing legal, ethical, moral, and social issues, and conflating them with one another.

From a legal perspective, I don’t have much to say. The law is whatever people can interpret it to mean and convince a judge it means, full stop. The intent of the law is often completely decorrelated from it’s eventual (non-?)enforcement.

Cloning is not the main issue that I have with Behringer either - humans copy, that’s what we do. Whether such copying is legal is purely a legal matter. Whether such copying is moral, or ethical, however, is another matter entirely.

I.

From a societal standpoint, the main issue I see surrounding Behringer that sets them apart from, say, a boutique manufacturer turning out their take on another barberpole flanger is that of the risk/profit/social impact:

  1. Behringer takes a fully validated product developed by someone else, not just single design or concept, which can then be taken to market with the full hindsight of the fact that it’s completely successful, and then positions it clearly with the same signalling that it is a replacement or substitute for the thing itself.
  2. Behringer then, having massively reduced both their R&D and product development/market experience costs, manufactures said items using globalization and financialization models at scale, pocketing the profits.
  3. This model, like most major mass-produced electronics, hides a variety of costs from the consumer: environmental costs, labour/fair wage costs, fair R&D, etc. sending a signal to the marketplace that the other products are overpriced, when in fact Behringer is simply profiting off of externalization of such costs.
  4. This signal skews the perceived value in the marketplace, making it more difficult for ethical manufacturers and those who do their own R&D to position their products at a fair cost, and forcing them to either externalize as well or go out of business, at which point Behringer could then pick up their abandoned projects and apply the same ritual to them.
  5. Customers come to anticipate this, and instead of waiting to save up for a quality product, permit boutiques to struggle along and just wait for the inevitable Behringer clone to come out at one tenth the price.

This is the long game of the financialization process and highlights many of the realities for smaller companies and creatives alike. It’s played out from clothing/fashion to industrial design.

II.

It differs significantly from the boutique guitar pedal market in that each pedal is both far less complicated, more highly differentiated even within narrow functionality ranges, and not marketed as a replacement for but rather an individual take on another idea. These are simple, easily replicable concepts which have low barriers to entry, high market diversity, and very little real IP. It would be quite different if, say, Polymoon were cloned outright, and I daresay the guitar pedal market would react quite differently in such a case too (as well they should). There are also relatively low profits to be made making yet another without adding some innovation to it, because of the simplicity and general obviousness of the product.

Pedals are also cheaper, meaning people can own far more than one, and they are not often aspirational objects, the effect of which is far beyond what I can easily discuss here. Synths, on the other hand, are specific items, often bought to fill a specific need and thus blocking out the purchase of similar others.

Thus cloning a pedal idea is far less damaging to their market as a whole than cloning an aspirational, high value / high complexity complete system such as a synthesizer.

III.

Anyone who is supporting Behringer’s position in this is missing the fact that if you argue for some or all intellectual property rights to be effectively public, you need to also argue for the profits to be public, or you’re just arguing for a large handout to the wealthy who have access to the global-scale production, legal, and financialization resources at the expense of innovation and social betterment. Lower prices are not better, putting retired products back into the market by hiding and externalizing costs is not better. In the long run, it destabilizes market signals and perceptions and does a grave danger to true innovation, healthy wages for skilled work, and the realities of ecologically respectful manufacturing, and by eliding the R&D costs, it simply accelerates all of these.

Thus, to me it is obviously hypocritical to argue that Behringer should be allowed to do what they do and say that you’re supporting innovation, healthy markets, or creativity at the same time. In the long run, you’re supporting the destruction of the few remaining social systems and structures which, under capitalism, do support innovation and creativity at a small scale, without advocating for the necessary changes to such a structure which would support public IP and prohibit people such as Uli from being resource extractors and social parasites.

Counterintuitively, it’s therefore a definitively capitalist argument to support Behringer in this case (profits belong to the person able to find them, externalization of costs is not a market concern, fair wages are whatever you can force people to work for somewhere in the world, etc.), and a leftist one to oppose it (workers, including creators and innovators of real product, deserve fair wages, ethical treatment, and ownership of their work product and the means to produce it).

Behringer is not the only firm to do this, of course, but they’re up there with the most blatant, and they hide behind the strawman argument that ideas should be free, which is just handwaving diversion from the core results of their actions. And because they only make it that much harder for ethically minded innovators to charge and get a fair price from the market, supporting Behringer’s business model under the current economica/social/legal frameworks, therefore, would be utterly unethical.

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I remember a pedal maker that blatantly stole another circuit - I think, maybe even the literal circuit board out of the pedal - rehoused it in a fancy enclosure, and sold it for 3-4x as much. I don’t know what the outcome/ending of that was but it was a wake up call. People were spending $300 for something that they could literally buy for $50. Might’ve been the first time that I began really scrutinizing forum hype. One reason why I really appreciate this place.

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I completely agree with you on all points here.

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It’s not so much about shifting values, but rather that peoples positions are nuanced and depend on context.

But the situations are not perfectly analogous. Behringer releasing an Odyssey keyboard (that directly competes with Korg’s) is not the same as AION’s eurorack versions of Moog modules (that are only available in limited quantities in complete systems), which is not the same as TipTop’s drum modules (cloned from a long discontinued product that was never available in modular format). Rightly or wrongly, people perceive these as different points on the spectrum of acceptable behaviour.

But it does, because Behringer’s behaviour is perceived as more harmful than other peoples, by virtue of their size: they have to power to harm Korg or Moog by undercutting their prices, in a way that AION or TipTop do not. And again, the fact that Behringer is a large corporation is only one of the many factors that people use to evaluate the situation.

Your position seems to be that people should have unambiguous rules about what kind of cloning is acceptable or not, but I don’t see how that is possible, because cloning is itself a nebulous concept. Everything people create is influenced by what has come before, what is acceptable will always be a question of degree.

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I second this. @equipoise thank you for that post.

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Sigh… I’d be in a much better place financially if this were true :joy:. I have more than a few pedals that cost more than my minilogue. I digress. (And I see what you’re saying. Just having fun.)

I didn’t mean to equate the situations 1 to 1, or to endorse the behavior. The sentiment is more like Ed Tom Bell’s uncle or cousin taking a deep breath and telling Ed Tom that “what you got here ain’t nothin’ new.”

100% agree. Some are looking for an absolute ethical rule to follow (paying attention to the validity of the form of the argument), others are replying with very specific “yeah but what about this” scenarios (paying attention to the soundness of the argument). There is no perfect analogy; analogies are attempts at seeing the situation through the eyes of a roughly similar situation. I keep seeing folks reject any analogy that does not fit like a glass slipper.

Well, I think that would be correct if it were Boss doing the copying. The mid-sized boutique companies seem more than happy to riff on each others’ ideas, and even collaborate across company lines. Take the Cooper/Chase Bliss Generation Loss collab for example. It’s what makes that community so wonderful.

I understand that perceptions are different and that is exactly my point.There is clearly bias and prejudices (in this case corporation = bad)
At some point anyone can argue an exception should be made in their case and rightly so.
I believe reaching that point is going to play right against any good intention we might have for allowing, in our cases, small manufacturers to do something, but not anyone else.

True.Once a precedent has been established, historically speaking, there is very little room to go back.
We must be careful for what you wish.

yes, that is the case now, but that isn’t a guaranteed future. the eurorack community is, I think, pretty good when it comes to appreciating the need for things to cost what they do to support the continued experimentation by a broad swath of makers that defines the entire format.

based on literally every single example of behavior listed in this thread, do I think Behringer would take the work of Make Noise and Tom Erbe and cram it into a $200 module called the ‘transformagene’ (or whatever the fuck) if they thought they could make enough money on it? absolutely.

all to say, market segments aren’t written in stone and companies work to modify those segments to their benefit, not necessarily to the benefit of the overall market.

@equipoise said it better, but these kinds of distortions to the market can be really destructive.

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Permission / cooperation is a totally different matter, and I think you’re missing the point here: cloning is not really the issue - the hidden damage to the market and the innovators is. An open collaboration is a benefit to everyone and preserves the value to both the consumer and the creator. The problem is when that action is hostile and asymmetric, hiding the costs and funnelling profits away from those who create value.

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Of course, you can see in this image from a Behringer video what they do: the image of a Make Noise Maths in the lower left hand corner of the monitor on the right as the design reference, their copy being laid out on the monitor on the left.

o

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Rather devoid of soul. I’ll buy the original.

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Your post reminds me of a quote from a Netflix series - Abstract. The subject was Neri Oxman and her role in the MIT Media Lab. They stated there was a somewhat humerous saying around the lab that “the choice of font was just as important as the choice of which genome they were going to study next”.

I may have butchered that somewhat but the point was that Neri truly believes that inspired design inspires, even in the smallest way… this picture of the Behringer team leaves me cold.

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20 characters of smh. That is gross.

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I’m a designer by trade. Seeing that image spoke volumes. Of a team of people with no clue and no ideas or interests. I’ve been known to take 6 months to find the perfect colour for a client, the people in that photo use a colour picker and go to lunch.

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Sure, and don’t you think Tony had a DUSG up on his monitor when he designed his lower performance knockoff? A quick look at Make Noise’s web site and manuals for Maths (both old and new) doesn’t reveal a single mention of the Serge heritage behind this module, which is exactly what many here have objected to. If you want the real deal that acknowledges the original (living) designer, go buy an officially endorsed high performance DUSG from Random*Source.

Don’t get me wrong, I owned consecutive serial number Maths (in the low 800 range) for years and made a ton of music with them, but I’ve also been around long enough to know there was controversy around Maths when it was released. The QMMG doesn’t acknowledge Grant Richter’s obvious influence either. Dig deep into the archives and you will find a rich history.

In any case, the layout on the left seems to lack a Maths’ essential Channel 2 & 3 function, at least in this picture, but it looks like an improvement over the V2 Maths which has the annoying stacked Channel 2 & 3 and also has the abhorrent reset-on-power-cycle “Loop” button.

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would it make sense to ask from the guy before you start spreading a lies like this here?

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Take heart, and know that, though we are taking different roads, we will arrive at the same destination. The only actual lever that I have to pull is the way that I behave with my purchases (my praxis). I almost exclusively purchase from companies and individuals who are doing it right. Ultimately, our stances on what Behringer is doing in the market are irrelevant; no amount of sentiment will change anything. But if we each make the right choice when no one is looking, the issue takes care of itself. I do very much appreciate everyone’s thoughts, and this has been very thought-provoking. With that, back to making music for me :grinning:.

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Be nice.

Tony Rolando was definitely aware of the DUSG when he designed the first Maths. The circuits are different, which was one of his defenses at the time, but the idea and general execution are so similar as to be indistinguishable. Maths’ lightning bolts were and are awesome, though–I never understood why people hated on the graphics so much.

Maybe you could tell us your credentials again, while suggesting that no one but you has any experience with IP law? Is that “being nice”?