Somewhat relevant, but in the States a new small claims court was setup to resolve claims of copyright infringement:

Edit: Ooof. Sorry about the thumbnail. Not my doing.

Ah, you’re correct of course, and I am mistaken. Thanks for the correction, and I will withdraw my post.

Hmm, thats a difficult one. I have to think about it for a while.

Technique > gear.

That’s how I avoid fetishism. When I do. I’m susceptible too, but it’s not often that I escape regret for such behavior.

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A lot of great thoughts on this thread, and many things and different perspectives to be learnt. I am very grateful for having access to a platform that allows this.

I would encourage everyone to please not delete posts, it kind of break the flow when reading back the thread and make it very confusing to follow, especially when people have replied to that very post that now has been deleted :slight_smile: You can always add an additional comment via editing the post, or reply to the actual post, would you have changed mind on something previously said.

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I don’t disagree with the comments @slowsounds made regarding consumer purchases driving the electronic music production gear marketplace, but I do thoroughly agree with this too. That doesn’t mean that these clones aren’t being bought as first synths by people who have previously only owned softsynths, though. For whatever it might be worth, I think something like a Mini- or Microbrute would be an ideal first synth (but that may be clouded by the fact that they were my first synths…) but, let’s face it, is there really much of a difference between somebody owning a Boog Model D as their first synth in 2019/20 and somebody owning a MiniMoog as their first synth in 1975?

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A lot of pros have original gear behringer eventually clones, a lot of newcomers want that gear thinking it will make their creative output better. And they also lack money a lot of the time. Why would they want original products?
I don’t advocate for behringer here, just find it strange to expect chivalry from a business in a culture that’s being moved forward by cloning, copying, reverse engineering and appropriation. Behringer clones simply because familiar things sell better than new. Like those Baienglaca sneakers :slight_smile:

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Haha! Adidas 2 stripe?

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OK, lets think about it from the perspective of clones as a first synths.
In 1975, minimoog was one of the very few options on the market. Today we have the whole plethora of options starting with incredible soft-synths (some of which are build in to the DAW so essentially free) and ending with the rather extensive collection of late 90’/early 00’ hardware synths that are in my humble opinion arguably some of the best sounding synths ever invented. Then we have the analog revival for the last ten years with it’s own jewels and its own aftermarket. All of this puts us into very different situation compared with 1975.
Because of that, I don’t think Behringer Model D or the original Moog Model D (or in fact any ‘vintage’, ‘classic’ or ‘famous’ synth or their cheap knockoffs) is a good choice for starting synthesis enthusiast today. In fact the whole argument is questionable because it’s based on the sole assumption that Model D (or in fact any of the ‘vintage gear’ Behringer is coping) is a good synth in 2020. I would question that deeply. It maybe is a dream synth for an ageing synth collector (because of the legends surrounding that instrument) but this has more to do with the desirability for that particular target audience that with actual usefulness for a starting up musician who is looking different ways to establish her sound, style and flow. The hypocrisy of ‘lawyer dads’ (thnx @slowsounds) requesting the clones to be on market ‘because starting up musicians cant afford the real deal’ is the ‘ick’ for me in this clone business.

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It’s a good thing for all of us that the descendants of Louis Sax aren’t the only ones who can make a saxophone. Likewise for Jonas Chickering’s descendants and the modern grand piano, Leo Fender and the solid body electric guitar, and many others besides.

The notion that an idea can be hoarded like gold bullion (and for the same greedy reasons) is something I’d like to see a lot less of–but the major tech companies push it hard for obvious self-interested reasons.

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It depends. Those responsible for the ideas are certainly stakeholders in how those ideas are used - especially true when their name is being used in the trade. Whether the law permits it or not should be secondary but the law is the primary tool we have to deal with these circumstances. We aren’t talking life or death here, for the most part. But I can’t think of anything more greedy than a large privately held company profiting on the backs of individual creators without their permission.

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On many levels I agree - that was my point. Just like when celebrities bought Minimoogs and famously sold them because they were broken (“it only plays one note at a time!”) I’m sure that many who buy Boogs as their first synth will end up parting with them before too long.

For what it’s worth, I would argue that the Boog (in principle, as I’ve never used one) is a good synth in 2020 if you’re looking for a 2 VCO analogue monosynth for a couple of hundred pounds secondhand. I have no idea how well built they are or (consequently) how long they will last, but the idea that it is somehow toi limited seems an odd suggestion to me.

The elephant in the room re: the point @jnoble makes regarding major tech companies hoarding ideas is that Behringer is somehow trying to posit itself as both: i.e. trading on the notion that they are bringing affordable synths to the masses (which is hard to argue with, especially, as stated earlier in the thread, when discussing various geographic marketplaces) and yet Behringer/Music Tribe are the very definition of “major tech companies” which renders that argument somewhat void for me.

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i have this feeling i swatted the hornets nest in regards to deep feelings folks have regarding Behringer products and their stuff. I am approaching it as honestly just god darn curiosity. It arrives tomorrow
i used the pro one with meringue in 1997 for pouring things

i did my best ‘wakemans’ on the track and it was the original Pro One from a garage sale
i realize the first few days will be novelty and what not but i was under the impression they were adding midi and fun things to make it kinda theirs

There is an argument for that, certainly. The x0x units having additional built-in effects, the Poly D having additional voices etc. For me the concept gets more interesting when things are combined in new ways i.e. taking the oscillator from one clone, the filter from another and adding in the architecture of a third… and selling it for sub £150 (see: Crave). I’m not sure if that’s still a clone or more some kind of hybrid clone cannibalism!

No, I mean anyone hoarding ideas and treating them as property. This kind of thing is severely limited under IP laws for the very good reason that hardly anything would get done otherwise. Monopolies are bad, no matter who has them.

This has been recognized in common law countries for hundreds of years. We have seen fit to make certain exceptions to encourage people to make more art, to invest more in innovation, and the like but all of these limited monopolies were at least originally intended to serve the same purpose, namely to encourage people to publish their work into the public domain so society could make use of it. This isn’t a matter of opinion but rather well-documented history.

We reap the benefits of this in medicine, music, engineering, science, agriculture, and just about every other endeavor. What these would-be owners of ideas don’t want to do is to give any credit to the public body of knowledge that they built on–they only want to keep things to themselves. This is parasitical at best: they want to take but not give. As Newton famously put it: “If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants.”

Bringing it back to Behringer clones, the idea of the Minimoog D is the cheapest thing in the world: less than a wisp of air. The reality of designing a physical product for manufacture, sourcing everything, assembling it, packaging it, shipping it, marketing it, supporting it, etc. is something else again. Ask anyone who has tried to manufacture something what the hardest part was, and I think you’ll find few people who say the idea or the breadboarded prototype.

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Society benefits from the sharing of ideas but this is blatant copycatting. There’s a difference between building on an idea and flat out trading on someone else’s brand. Nothing new was created here. If you have the technical ability to bring this sort of product to market, why copy someone else’s?

Anyway, I don’t have a dog in the race. I don’t see it as a simple problem, either. But we aren’t talking about medicine or life saving technology which is a far more complicated topic.

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This interview is interesting, I ran across it because someone mentioned the forthcoming RD-909:

It sounds like this guy worked pretty hard on a clean slate sequencer for it. This isn’t “cloning” even if the sound-producing circuits are the same.

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maybe is a dream synth for an ageing synth collector

The hypocrisy of ‘lawyer dads’

Maybe you could knock it off with the ageism?

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Yeah, this is cutting too close to home for many of us but age really is a critical dimension of this discussion, as I emphasised in my original post. Behringer clones exist to sell a cheap nostalgia trip for ageing synth community.

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Irrelevant side note: I’m not sure I’m tracking with the Lawyer Dad persona (poor guy is really taking a beating here!).

Lawyer Dad (or just, like, any employed person with disposable income), is going to buy a vintage Moog…right? Even if he doesn’t play it for an audience (which I’ve gathered somehow makes him a hypocrite?) and only shows it off to his buddies, he’s probably not doing the lawyer thing and buying knockoff, well, anything.

Leaning on my intuition more than an actual argument here. The people I know who fit this persona, for better or worse, are probably not the target market.

Doesn’t matter, just a thought :partying_face:.

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