#176

Actually, in guitar world, “Lawyer Dad” translates to “Suburban Dentist”, and Suburban Dentist buys the Custom Shop 58 Les Paul with a heavy relic job. He plays with a group of similar demographic dudes… usually for free, at the local farmers market on Saturday. “Hedge Fund Investment Guy “ is the one that owns a hundred vintage guitars that never get played.

There is a whole other parallel, imaginary world of pedal steel guitarists too…

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#177

Ha! Ha…heh…

(as he browses Reverb for pedal steels…)

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#179

If anyone has access to the demographics of Behringer clone sales please feel free to share them here. Otherwise, it’s just assumptions based not on factual data, but on negative stereotypes.

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#180

If anyone is targeting rich people with nostalgia, it’s Moog with the modular reproductions and the Model D.

There’s little prestige to be found in a $299 box from Guitar Center. As a reasonably well-off middle aged dad, I find this line of reasoning unpersuasive.

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#181

Agreed, but its summoning does speak directly to the project at hand for some: self-realization through authentic consumption - in opposition to those inauthentic people and their inauthentic synths/company. Feels a bit like the mid-90s.

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#182

I am going to have this engraved on my modular synth case. :smiley:

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#183

I’m also unconvinced that it’s mostly well-off middle/upper class people who are buying Behringer stuff, but in any event I think it doesn’t matter: using Behringer’s supposed target demographic as a value judgement seems unkind & ad hominem.

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#184

Sniiiip

Blah blah I just realised I wrote the same thing two years ago at the top of this thread. I am so sorry, I’m such a bore.

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#185

"Something clearer. Patent rights are generally 20 years, whereby the technology is freely available for everyone. This allows the inventor, on the one hand, to harvest the fruits of his invention, but also to ensure that no monopoly arises and, after the expiry of the protection, everyone has free access to the technology - without a bad conscience.

In the case of the Curtis or SSM chips, the patent rights of these 40-year-old components have run out for a long time and everyone can reproduce them today. Why this no longer companies do is simply because the mask costs are very high (6-digit USD range per chip) and on the other hand the minimum edition is about 300,000 - 500,000 pieces.

Curtis has registered the name rights for Curtis and CEM, but on the number 3340 etc. there is no protection. Therefore, there are other vendors who have revived these old chips:

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#186

Putting all the other arguments aside, there’s an itch I can’t scratch that says: if I’m not getting the thing, is an analogue version of Not The Thing different/better than a virtual Not The Thing? This is why, for all my glib comments about a Synthi, I don’t envisage ever actually buying a Behringer synth clone.

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#188

This same line of thought crossed my mind as well. Also, the element of craftsmanship is becoming apparent in the synth industry (Moog assembling by hand, in the USA for instance) but I wonder if it could ever reach the levels of guitar marketing (where specific makers/master luthiers are making guitars for Fender/Gibson which has some marketing value)? In a way, Moog did this with the Moogerfoogers and MiniFoogers and it seemed their Eurorack products are very much not marketed as top-end.

#189

I need cloned as it would allow me to be on the forum even more :slight_smile:

#190

I almost wrote a similar post last night, though I don’t care much for VA plugins. A Minimoog is a completely different thing from the Boog in person. For me, playing a Minimoog sparks joy. The Boog is more of a “that’s nifty and marginally less crappy than I expected” feeling. Considering all the choice we have in synthesizers these days, those two have very different ideal use cases. The 303 or 101 copies would be a closer comparison, but then all that nasty and hypocritical ageism would have less bite.

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#191

Yes, Moog have a sensible product range - you can buy a good useful Moog for relatively little money. But it may be that people don’t want good and useful and sensible, they want to buy the heritage / legend / piece of the magic. That’s why I suspect the Behringer Model D outsells their horrid red thing by 10(?) to one. Even without the Moog name the Model D it has a little bit of the magic.
If Moog did help customers buy the magic I think they would be successful. Their Grandmother thing is good and useful, but has zero heritage/charm/familiarity for a normal punter (or me, TBH).
Make a F-ing cheap Minimoog with proper keys and a slopey control panel and chinese SMD behind that panel and Behringer can’t compete. Even label it with a ‘Something, by Moog’ brand like Squier, keeping Moog for the $15,000 custom shop version with every resistor matched exactly to the Mini Bernie Worrell played on ‘Flash Light’, complete with scratches.

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#192

Moog strikes me as something of a tariff dodge since, aside from the limited runs of astronomically priced nostalgia products, aren’t they mostly a design studio and screwdriver shop that puts together offshored PCB assemblies and such to be able to claim “Made in the USA” status? Perhaps someone with more insight can shed some light. Paul Schreiber’s detailed debunking of Moog CEO Mike Adams’ claims about tariffs was interesting and gave some insight into Moog’s business model.

As far as the mojo of originals vs. the clones, there is a lot to be said for the effect the look, shape, and history of an instrument has on the artist. Much of it is placebo effect but it’s real nevertheless and should not be dismissed even if the sound is objectively the same and can’t be distinguished in blind comparisons.

In the case of the Boog, I know someone who simultaneously owned an original (and well-maintained by the Right Synth Guru) Model D and a Boog, and they said the Boog was spot-on. The audio comparisons have borne this out: there are sometimes greater differences between vintage examples of the Model D than between the Boog and a Model D. But if it makes you feel $3200 better to play a “real” Moog[1], then I’d be the last person to criticize you.

[1] There is of course no continuity between the old Moog Music’s products and the clones they are making today. I would hazard a guess that Bob Moog himself would probably not have approved of them since he was always looking forward.

#193

Kind of what Buchla is doing with Red Panel, though in that case they’re not inexpensive Chinese-made products, just less expensive than their flagship stuff and (for now, anyway), in a different format.

#194

For what it’s worth I’m pretty sure Moog is an employee-owned cooperative which places it about as far from Behringer/Music Tribe as it’s possible to be doesn’t it?

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#195

Well, I certainly don’t know of any businesses that actively look for ways to change their manufacturing in order to pay tariffs but its safe to say that any US based manufacturer in any industry is a “screw shop” unless they have their own parts pickers and are able to solder in volume. In my line of work, I believe all of the companies I interact with fit that description of “screw shops”.

That being said, not sure what this has to do with Behringer clones. Moog is employee owned and I think more than anything, Bob Moog would want the company to survive. But its useless for me to conjecture on a business model that I have no real insight on and the vision of a late pioneer that I had no personal knowledge of.

EDIT: Also, I know that Moog strives to pay a living-wage to its employees which is admirable but certainly contributes to overhead. Asheville is not the cheapest place to live anymore.

Still, even at $3k+, all of the Minimoogs are sold. So are the $$$$$ 5u systems (except the new Model 10). They certainly didn’t miss the mark with their reissues even though the high prices rubbed many the wrong way. And they released 5-6 new synths since then… like Buchla, not inexpensive, but the Grandmother/Matriarch line is certainly cheaper than the Moog Ones.

The Moog One will possibly be the next “heritage” synth from Moog, I guess. I’m not familiar with it so couldn’t speak to its overall reception in the market. It still seems like there is room for them to issue a $500-600 SMT clone of their older stuff if people really want it that bad. I’m guessing the margins are terrible all the way around but Behringer likely views a clone as an entry level complimentary product to other Behringer gear. If you already have the supply chain and distribution worked out…

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#196

Yes, and that approach seems sensible - there are tonnes of DIY buchla 100 clones, and have been several attempts to launch full Euro format lookalike systems - much better if Buchla can do it themselves, gain kudos from their brand and goodwill. If that’s their ‘Made in USA’ to the 200e’s ‘Custom Shop’, there’s still room for their ‘Made in Mexico’ and ‘Squier’

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#197

I’m going to expose myself here so I hope vulnerability will play in my favor. I am a 34 year old dad, who is gainfully employed, certainly middle class. I own a Behringer RD-8. I also own some Buchla, a pre-cbs Fender Musicmaster, a production line telecaster from the mid 2010s, and a vintage Paia 4700 modular.

I bought the RD-8 because I used to own a Roland 707 and I really enjoy the “playing” aspect of a hardware drum machine. I grew weary of the 707 sounds (except the snare and hats) and so I ditched it. I have always loved the 808 sounds as a growing boy listening to hip hop and rap in the 90’s. I suppose I could’ve gotten something from MFB, Arturia or even Roland (or others).

I tried just going the samples route, I even had an Elektron Model:Samples for a bit, which was great fun. The RD-8 was just too tempting and to be fair it does have some features the original didn’t but it certainly is not an innovation.

I will just put my FRs on now. Cheers

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