#106

it was not the christian iconography on the back, it was the hateful literature included. chick tracts which are homophobic, islamaphobic, anti-catholic, etc. there was some concern expressed in the thread on here, but no clear indication that was why they shut down. there was more discussion in the thread if you’re interested in hearing what people said, it was all quite civil.

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#107

Oh ok. My panels were always in non-hateful bubble wrap with nothing extra. Weird.

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#108

Does anyone have any copies of these chick tracts? I’m really interested to see what content he was actually including. I know that chick tracts are originally quite xenophobic, so I’m wondering if BKM’s were too, or if they were rather Christian booklets conflated with those more inappropriate. Perhaps I should be asking this in the other thread!

#109

I saw someone on a facebook synth group I think post a photo, it was an actual chick tract but can’t remember which one. Even if it’s not an overtly nasty one I can understand why people wouldn’t be down with it, the handwringing about simply having an Ichthys on the BACK of the panel was pretty absurd, but actually including overt propaganda/evangelism material is maybe crossing a line :smiley:

Coming from a noise scene of CDs packaged in all manner of metaphorical and literal filth and ‘extreme’ political-religious symbols I find it hard to get too upset about someone just throwing in some generic christian junkmail with a euro faceplate tho. I used to take chick tracts in the street quite often for comedy / collage material purposes :slight_smile:

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#110

chick.com has everything you need to know about them. There isn’t much subtle at all, and it won’t take you long to understand the concern.

As a side note, growing up in the high-temperature religious world, I remember Chick tracts were kind of collectors items - like religious baseball cards. Very disturbing to think about that now…

[ddg]

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#111

I dont think reviving the BKM discussion in here is a good use of this thread. There is plenty of discussion in the Black Panels thread Black mannequins panels if you want to read more or continue talking about it. I know that many in this thread missed that one, so no worries, but… yeah :+1:

Edit: looks like this discussion has been moved into the BKM thread from it’s prior thread

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#112

i really didn’t want to derail this thread any further (maybe we should separate this whole thing into a separate topic) but some things need to be cleared.

no, @retoid was not forced to close. he chose to close - just as he chose to include literature with his panels with heavy antisemitic, homophobic, islamophobic associations, and that became public. the presence of other religious symbols just confirmed that that action was not just some misguided attempt at humour.

i posted here to give @retoid a chance to reply and clarify all of this. if he chooses to include it with his panels then people need to be aware of it, otherwise you take their choice away.

yes, it’s really shitty that this involved a member of community that contributed to it so much. you know what else is shitty? being reminded that according to some people you are abnormal, an abomination when you just want to make some fucking music. yeah, it’s just fucking panels. not a big deal, right?

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#113

Let’s not forget the hardworking members (especially those in the LGBTQ community, and of other faiths) in our community who designed the ORIGINAL panels would probably not appreciate the new context that BKM Panels were imposing into their work.

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#114

My apologies for passively contributing to derailing the other thread. And thanks for bringing this up. I was blissfully unaware of most of this. But not anymore. Now I need to think if I want to be part of that legacy or not :grimacing:

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#115

I’m really wrestling with this one. Can anyone find and share the image these tracts being packaged with the panels? I grew up in the church and am very familiar with the hate/conspiracy/crazy that is Chick.

I am now an atheist but I try to be neutral toward people’s beliefs as long as they stay positive toward people who are different than them –the messaging in Chick tracts definitely does cross that line. The fish iconography never bothered me being on the back and there are plenty of business that put bible verses on packaging. I’ve bought a lot of these panels, never received any of these materials and was kind of caught off guard that this was the story going around.

I do not wish to associate with intolerance –even though I’ve achieved 95% blackness with these panels (roughly equal to my own heart). I also don’t want to blindly believe a story without proof from something someone saw on facebook. There are a lot of hateful christians out there and a lot of them who’s beliefs make them kinder. I don’t want to make a harsh judgment about a person based only on rumors or someone extrapolating out from a printed ichthus that a person is hateful.

1 Like
#116

These things littered the University District in Seattle when I was a kid and they were kinda my introduction to comics. Many, many underground comics artists have made parodies of the format. They were almost like a “kitsch” object to me and I know people who kind of collect them. They are so over the top that it’s hard to imagine anyone being swayed by them but I trust the Southern Poverty Law Center and I think they do qualify as hate speech. I ordered and received some of the BLM black panels, with no additional literature, and was totally unaware of this controversy. I have since taken them off. I’d be happy to pass them on to someone who would use them. They have no offensive markings on them. (Just Friends, 3 Sisters, Cold Mac). PM me if interested.

1 Like
#117

I think the Chick tracts were a much later & recent addition to the orders. I’d seen BKM panels around for a while but never heard anyone mention them. I don’t feel like digging through the FB posts but there were several people who mentioned getting them recently and at least one or two photos of them.

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#118

Well I asked for proof and I got it. I had emailed him when I heard about the store closing asking for any leftovers and it just came in today. I’m pretty disappointed and feel compelled to swap back to original panels. :pensive:

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#120

I completely agree. Could we write this off as a misguided way to help in these trying times? It’s not as if this is a constant it seems. We all make mistakes

#122

we are all free to make choices.

@retoid made a choice to include chick tracts (for whatever reason, which i don’t think is appropriate to discuss here - it is his choice to decide whether to explain it or not).

there was a choice to not continue doing that if somehow he didn’t know what chick tracts represent.

there was a choice made by several module makers who did not want their modules to be associated with chick tracts.

and there is a choice for some of us to not indirectly finance a group (i mean chick productions, not bkm) that makes money on promoting hatred towards us and others.

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#124

i’m not sure how you’re reading that from my post exactly - and what does it have to do with this particular situation.

and if you’re right and there were some additional reasons (which, frankly, i feel super uncomfortable discussing here) - it still does not mean buyers or module makers are not free to make their choice. which was where the whole discussion started. there was no call for boycott or to close the business. the question was asked - so that we all could make a choice.

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#126

absolutely not. never implied that, and if it came across that way then i did not explain myself properly.

if there was a reason to suspect that it was done deliberately (by which i mean “a choice to promote hate”) i doubt we would be having this discussion. i think there is a lot of good will being offered - and precisely because we’re talking about a member of this community.

#127

hey everyone – i’m going to lock this thread for the moment, until the mods can do a deeper review.

25 Likes
#128
#129

hi everyone,

apologies for closing this thread without providing additional context. the discussion was at a point where it seemed best to close it while the moderators considered what to do next.

since it was started, this topic has taken a few shapes:

  • discussion about black panels
  • concern around chick tracts being included in orders without communication + clarification
  • open discussion about another member’s mental health

if anyone would like to diy their own black panels for whimsical raps modules: https://github.com/whimsicalraps/MannequinsPanels

the next bit is complex. since @retoid has closed up shop, it seems that the discussion around their decision to include chick tracts with orders has come to a natural close as well. i am honestly unsure if it’s important for this information to remain public – the moderators are still discussing this.

the final point runs up against the framework of empathetic discourse. since Bryan has not been involved in the thread for a while and has not been present on lines in nearly a month, we can’t allow further open discussion about their mental health. these posts are public, indexed in search engines, and without Bryan’s presence, reflect a narrative that doesn’t feel right to canonize. additionally, we’ve seen that as the community grows, painful topics that do not need further discussion have surfaced in searches or as suggested posts to new users – i can’t imagine anybody wants to see this bumped in a year.

if anybody feels this is off-base or have additional concerns, please message the moderators (@moderators). we aren’t interested in censoring further discussion, we just ask that folks consider these points as they approach it.

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