Complex Live Looping Setup Help!

madeofoak · 2017-08-16T04:29:33.454Z

a phasing sound with a looper / Ableton setup is generally the result of an input being both directly monitored AND monitored through Live. I would guess you have your loopers set up with the Input > Output setting at something besides “Never”, while also having the input monitored either through the mixer or your interface.

If there’s a way to do it, could you please post a diagram of your entire setup? And if possible, find a place to upload your Ableton patch so we could examine it? I do similar stuff with Ableton all the time and am happy to help, but it’s tough to tell where you’re going wrong with the information provided.

Arithmetikmusiq · 2017-08-16T04:50:57.282Z

I’ll try and figure out a way to post a diagram of the entire setup, I know the photos don’t really offer too much insight. As far as looping goes, I’m using a hardware looper, the Boss RC-300,. I’m not doing any looping in Ableton whatsoever. I’m mainly using Ableton for midi keys/drums etc…as well as using it for polygome/press cafe etc. with the Monome. Thank you so much for lending a helping hand my friend. Let me know if this clears anything up at all.

Arithmetikmusiq · 2017-08-16T12:32:42.870Z

After noodling with my setup on and off for a while, I still haven’t gotten it quite right yet. Again, thank you guys for sharing insight and advice. I’m probably the one setting it up wrong as it seems like such a simple fix haha.

madeofoak · 2017-08-16T22:34:47.112Z

it really does clear things up. I would just agree with the others above in encouraging you to use the looper on one of the mixer’s aux send channels, making sure that no audio from the input to the looper ever goes directly to the output of the looper, though brief googling didn’t reveal whether or not that’s possible with an rc-300.

bachelard · 2017-08-19T19:19:11.049Z

Like others said, I use the two Aux sends (post-fader) of my Mackie 1202-VLZ Pro to send all my sound sources - Eurorack, other synths/samplers, live bamboo flutes - through looper/fx pedals and a Eurorack sampler/delay. One Aux send (the FX Send on your mixer) goes out into my Eventide Timefactor --> reverb pedal --> back to the Aux return (ST Return on your mixer), and the other Aux goes into my Eurorack sampler Reflex Liveloop, and the module output goes into one of the stereo input channels so I can control the level a bit better. On that channel, the Aux 2 level is at 0 so its output doesn’t feedback onto itself.

I have the Aux levels on all channels, Aux Master and Return levels all at noon (Unity) position and haven’t experienced any clipping problems as long as I manage the individual input channel levels. And then everything goes out the main outputs of the mixer. I’ve had my setup for live performance many times and haven’t had any level problems.

For your set up, then, you’d connect all your sound sources (computer via Audio 6, TC voice pedal, Yamaha) into individual input channels. Connect the FX Send outputs to the inputs of your RC-300, and the outputs of the RC-300 to the ST Return, and you use the yellow knobs on each channel to control how much signal from each channel goes into the looper, and the ST RTN fader to control the level coming from the RC. If you’re not recording anything in Ableton and using it mainly as an instrument/drums playback, you’d just route the output of your laptop/audio interface into an input channel on the mixer into the PA. You want to make sure you’re not sending any audio back into Ableton with channel inputs and monitoring turned on in Ableton, which is where you might be getting distorted/phased sounds.

Hope this helps!

Arithmetikmusiq · 2017-08-20T23:33:52.198Z

Thank you so much, that was very insightful and got everything running smoothly. Big thanks to everyone who posted in this thread for the help as well!

veitch · 2020-02-17T15:31:14.000Z

I don’t know how to hook all these up; in what order?

Here’s a flow chart I put together to show you how I think it possibly should go. But I run into problems when I try to record something i’m making with live looping into Logic.

I’m still trying to work out midi clock and where that should come from. Ideally I’d be able to use the set up without the computer connected too.

Will you let me know what you think?

I don’t understand pre-faders, post faders, busses or aux sends yet.

One thing I really don’t get is what should be the master of the the midi clock?

TheTechnobear · 2020-02-17T16:26:13.085Z

audio looks good, id probably setup the looper on the sub bus,
though, if you’re happy with mono, then you could aux send.

midi, the mixers usb is for audio only (mixer acts as a audio interface) it does not handle midi.

so you need a usb - midi din converter.
you can get a cheap single din one, then go
laptop -> usb/midi din -> looper -> (thru) volca

or get a usb midi hub, that has multiple outputs so it can go directly to both looper and volca
(id probably do this esp. as your synth might also want clock for things like sync’d lfos, or get midi sequencing data from your computer )

who is master? usually the computer/daw is master, then set everything else to slave.

standalone… will require just then a couple of minor changes
set the looper to be midi clock master (as you computer is no longer there)
then take midi out (rather than thru) of looper into volca

veitch · 2020-02-17T16:51:50.017Z

Gahlord:

When you make music with your gear now how do you set it up?

Or did you recently just get a bunch of gear that you’ve never had before?

For example, how do you currently work with your looper?

Also: what are you wanting to do with your equipment set up? Record yourself? A band? What kind of music?

I’ve been using the looper to make fun stuff in my bedroom and then I’ve made things separately on my computer using logic, a mic and a DAW but I’d like to combine the two so I don’t have to separate and reconnect everything and so I can record directly what I’m making in the looper into Logic.

veitch · 2020-02-17T16:59:29.799Z

audio looks good, id probably setup the looper on the sub bus,

I’m really sorry but I don’t know what this means.

though, if you’re happy with mono, then you could aux send.

Same with this. I’m googling aux send but still finding it hard to understand.

midi, the mixers usb is for audio only (mixer acts as a audio interface) it does not handle midi

Gotcha. So I need to send the midi clock separately, not through the mixer.

so you need a usb - midi din converter. you can get a cheap single din one, then go laptop → usb/midi din → looper → (thru) volca

I think I actually have one of these. But this would mean that the laptop is controlling the clock.
What if i have no laptop connected? Could I go
looper → usb/midi din → computer
and
looper → usb/midi din → volca
?

or get a usb midi hub, that has multiple outputs so it can go directly to both looper and volca (id probably do this esp. as your synth might also want clock for things like sync’d lfos, or get midi sequencing data from your computer)

Great. I have one of these
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41Po3qr14aL.AC.jpg

I expect that would work?
I find it hard to work out whether, for instance, my Pocket Piano is sending midi clock data or actual midi notes.

standalone… will require just then a couple of minor changes set the looper to be midi clock master (as you computer is no longer there) then take midi out (rather than thru) of looper into volca

Could I set the looper to always be the midi clock master? Then when I connected my computer would take that as the master?

Thanks!

TheTechnobear · 2020-02-17T18:57:40.548Z

yeah, so your midisport looks great for the midi…

yes, you could set your looper to be master, and logic as slave - that’s the simplest way at least to get started.

audio : sub mix
so on your mixer, each track has 2 buttons sub and main
if you have sub pressed on it, then that tracks output will be sent to the sub mix
if you have main, it will sent to the main mix
(you can have both pressed)

so by using sub, you could record on your looper one or more of the tracks.
the advantage of submix is its stereo, and you can also choose to just monitor its output on your headphones… oh and its a nice big control to slide up : )
the disadvantage is you cannot control the individual levels of tracks going into the sub mix.

aux send is similar…
but you just have a gain (for aux) amount on each track.
the advantage is you can control the gain for each track individually
the disadvantage is its mono, an you cannot monitor it individually

either will work,
more details on both in the manual

btw: it’s a good idea to get familiar with both, and see what works for you.

good luck

veitch · 2020-02-18T11:01:16.719Z

Great!
Thanks everyone.
I worked out aux send and return and have the looper connected to that.
I couldn’t get the guitar to sound right sending it out for effects and then back to the mixer and then was unsure how to get it out again to the looper and then back in again so I ended up going
Guitar -> Effects -> Mixer -> Looper -> Mixer
instead of

Guitar -> Mixer -> Effects -> Mixer -> Looper -> Mixer

Working great with the midi clock. But I’ve yet to connect my computer to it. We shall see!

Zsolt · 2020-11-29T12:32:07.868Z

Hello you all out there

Since I have little experience, I’m back to ask for support, hints and hyperlinks for my plan to newly set up my gear. It seems to be complicated, and I’ll try to make it short.

To bring electronica and loops together with jazz played on real instruments.

A couple of line instruments with fx (Piano, double bass, electric bass, electric guitar), a looper (ditto x4), an MPC One (finger drumming, sequencing) and a basic mixer - it’s all there. Right --> no synths yet.

I am talking about live performance (that might be recorded, too), and with a click in the ear of course
What I want to do is, to make concepts for songs that have different parts, like sequences, and to be able to record loop phrases on the fly. While the loop phrase(s) play, I need space to improvise with other instruments, and - most most most importantly - I want to be able to make rhythmic or harmonic changes without prerecording or with little prerecording only.
I assume that to this purpose I am going to need more than just one looper. And most of all, it would be important, to tell a looper: “Play this sequence of 16 bars 4 times and then stop.”, while other loopers are running. And then - prepared beforehand of course - the looper would be ready to take another new sequence of 16 bars to play 4 times.

What gear is even able to do this?

Sounds like a one man show, and I want to build it as simple as possible first (sounds weird, doesn’t it?). But eventually I want to come to the point, that I can combine (and synchronise) all this live with another musician, who might contribute with his own loops and improvisations.

I hope that I could be clear, and yes: I know that this a lot to ask. I will be grateful for all comments and suggestions.

Zsolt

joelcorriveau · 2020-11-29T13:26:55.155Z

This brings to mind two different artists: Marc Rebillet and Binkbeats. You’ll find live performances of both of them on Youtube.

Marc uses a MIDI keyboard to control a MacBook running MainStage (which is like a performance rack of Logic instruments.) He has a his favourite instruments, drum kits picked out in advance so he can flip through them with his keyboard. He records the output of his laptop into a Boss RC-505.

He controls loops coming in and out. While improvising funk/soul music. He does a lot of long youtube streams. With much practice, he’s become very good at it. Here’s his run down, (NSFW - his persona swears a bit.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw3sNtqe5R0

Binkbeats uses Ableton Live running on a laptop. He laptop will be running a session that has MIDI clips previously mapped out to loopback control messages that determine how long to run each loop, etc. This is very technical and impressive, but doesn’t leave a lot of room for error or freeform improvisation. (You predetermine the length of sections.) Here is a mini-doc on his set up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya9VaE7dE6E

Zoe Keating is a cellist that does a similar method to Binkbeats. She’s using SooperLooper in Ableton Live, controlled with a soft-step triggering MIDI dummy clips through the IAC bus to control Ableton. Someone else to check out.

If you want your looper to know when to turn itself off, that commits you to decisions made ahead of time.

I hope this helps peak behind the curtain of a few different directions.

Zsolt · 2020-11-29T13:59:06.200Z

Thank you

You Tube algo didn’t propose these people yet

I am aware of it, that I will have to make decisions ahead of time. —> improvisation within given structures. That’s fine for me.

Just how to tell the looper?

joelcorriveau · 2020-11-29T14:14:09.091Z

You might be able to to turn your Ditto off after # of times by sending MIDI messages from a laptop (or possibly iPad) thru a MIDI interface. The more devices along the path, the trickier it gets.

Good luck!

Tunnelwater · 2020-11-29T15:00:22.253Z

I’m interested in what sort of relationship you are after between the looped parts and the live parts. Are you creating loops to blow over or will the loops be part of the improvisation process? I think there is a big difference between those two things.

I just watched some Marc Rebillet and it was utterly fantastic, but it seems to me that what’s essentially happening is him setting up funky two chord vamps that he then performs over and with. That is a cool thing to do and should be pretty easy to set up.

On the other hand there is another approach to looping in an improvised context that is taken by someone like Bill Frisell where he doesn’t really make live backing tracks to blow over but uses looping tools to contribute to texture. They do form a backing track of sorts but the way that he works means that the loops will always be different and so become integrated into the act of improvisation.

For me the second approach is by far more related to the spirit of improvisation in jazz than the first, but I can totally see the appeal of the first approach. Although, if you’re going that route with stuff that you have written I wonder why it wouldn’t just be a better thing to pre-record everything and find a good flexible way triggering it to allow you to extend sections to improvise over etc. This would also get around the part of live looped performances that I find problematic which is the somewhat predictable dynamic shape as the looped parts gradually get built up.

Anyway, just some thoughts, I find this an interesting problem and I’m looking forward to seeing what other people reckon!

Zsolt · 2020-11-29T19:29:10.216Z

@joelcorriveau
Binkbeats is a real discovery here, thanks for the hint - it leads me to that Bink plug-in within Ableton. There ist even someone there who explains how it works:

This is great. Looks like it would already be a solution. I wish I could do that within Logic, because I am familiar with the latter - but anyway!

@Tunnelwater
I certainly would go with the Frisell-approach

Tunnelwater:

if you’re going that route with stuff that you have written I wonder why it wouldn’t just be a better thing to pre-record everything and find a good flexible way triggering it to allow you to extend sections to improvise over etc. This would also get around the part of live looped performances that I find problematic

That’s right - maybe I just come from an imagination of the ideal way of playing and recording everything on the spot. Binkbeats, which I just discovered today, shows that it is possible though.
But I’m fine with pre-recording everything or a part of it.

And of course I am very interested in what other folks will say.

gmuller · 2020-11-29T19:50:53.954Z

I don’t have any videos of it, but a guitarist I played with a long time ago used something called a Boomerang Phrase Sampler. I think it could only do three loops of an indeterminate length, but he could do some truly amazing things with it and just his guitar. It might be an excellent non-DAW way of doing what you’re talking about, especially with your analog instruments.

Zsolt · 2020-12-01T20:33:03.317Z

Right, so I just realised that “my” thread has been moved into an old thread dealing with complex live looping. So it is a bit weird and at the same time it seems to be appropriate as well

A little meta: I don’t know how to copy a link into the text without having a full column wide picture inserted … (bink looper tutorial above)

But anyway, since we are in the complex live looping thread and in gear category, I would like to ask more

I am going to need a new mixer, and I am struggling a bit, because I imagined, that it is easy to use them to record what is being played. But other than Zoom and Tascam models there are no (middle class) mixers that feature direct and editable and overdubbable recording on internal media like sd cards.

But here come the questions I’d like to put down - they might be silly but I’ll ask anyway

Part of my gear - looper, H9, MPC - is connected via midi sync. Why do mixers have midi connections? Do they act as click masters? If the mixer is hooked to a computer/daw, then midi features of the mixer are obsolete anyway - is that correct?
How can I set up a click track, that goes to the headphones but not to the main out?

I will greatly appreciate all support and encouragement

Zsolt