Hi all! I am new here so hopefully this question is in the spirit of the process forum.

My question regards workflow in computer modular programs. There are quite a few these days; I use VCV rack and Reaktor Blocks but this could apply to any of them. I was struck recently by Andrew Belt’s comment that he considers VCV rack to be a DAW in its own right, which is why the bridge from VCV to other DAWs is deprecated. This raises a philosophical question: what are the positives or negatives of running a modular program as a standalone app versus inside a traditional DAW (eg Live)? I’m used to running Reaktor Blocks inside a DAW and using the DAW to sequence MIDI as well as recording audio, but obviously VCV Rack users have a different point of view, one that I’m less familiar with. I’m interested in seeing peoples’ opinions on this from a compositional viewpoint (one could also view this from a technical viewpoint as well).

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I haven’t really followed the progress of VCV Rack since its introduction a couple of years ago. Certainly what it was then was not what I would consider a DAW. At the time, I was unsure whether imitating the Eurorack look and feel was really a good idea – it’s kind of a neat thing to do and I like the aesthetics of it, but it also implied giving up the strengths that software instruments can have in terms of interface. But I suspect third-party modules since then have erased the borders a bit.

I suppose if VCV includes a sufficient feature set, either natively or through plugins, it might be considered a DAW of sorts now. I assume there are tools for audio recording, and maybe editing, and real-time sequence recording? Are there VST host modules where parameters can be assigned to CV inputs? If not, I couldn’t see myself using it; if so I guess it would have to come down to how it feels in actual use.

I’ve recently fallen for Bitwig Studio. I find its Grid mostly very nice to work with, though some of its modules are a little too minimal IMHO, and I hope for even more integration with the rest of the software in the future (e.g. plugins and modulators within the grid itself).

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There is an audio recording tool in VCV rack; I don’t think there’s audio editing functionality or a robust real-time sequence recording tool, although I might be mistaken since there are a ton of modules in VCV. But you’ve hit upon the reason I asked the question – without these capabilities it seems that a modular VST that runs in a DAW would be preferable to VCV, but a lot of people use & prefer VCV Rack so I think I’m missing something.

Also, Bitwig looks really cool – the grid seems like an excellent tool!

I went through a similar transition in hardware, from just using modulars as a ‘sound engine’ to doing almost everything with them, composition, effects routing and so on. I still use the DAW for basic recording and effects (because I don’t want right now to mess with tape and outboard) but this is only a minimal use and doesn’t get much in the way.

It was one of the best decisions I’ve made. I no longer have to think anything out beforehand, everything can be developed more or less spontaneously, not just the sound design. Things like feedback sequencing, multiple interacting sequencers, also sequenced gating/filtering before effects send, etc. have now become standard and it’s enabled me to push things much further.

I was curious and spent some time with VCV and many aspects of the experience are similar. I didn’t mind as much having to control everything with mouse and keyboard, things are a lot slower this way than the direct hands-on approach of hardware, but the way of working is more or less the same.

What keeps me from VCV are all the usual, built-in limitations on sound quality inherent to basically all DSP-based approaches since the 1990’s. In particular, aliasing artifacts and/or the usual muffled sound when you try to push oscillator sync+FM. Running at the highest available sampling rate (for me: 176 kHz) didn’t have much of an effect.

Unfortunately I don’t think there’s a solution here, their entire way of doing things needs to be rethought. So for me unfortunately, the entire format is DOA. It’s a shame because other than these artifacts the quality of the built-in stuff is quite good, reminiscent of the Roland 100m modules in many aspects.

The idea that complex computations must be run at the audio sampling rate rather than much simpler computations at much higher rates is the culprit. This may have been a necessary limitation in the 1980’s but shouldn’t be one with the processing power available today.

Much research has been poured into things like band-limited oscillator design and delay-free loop approximations, which are simply band-aids over problems that should not have been created in the first place. Band-limited oscillators do not stay that way when modulated and this aspect was very obvious to me with VCV. Sure, one could then just not apply various modulations, but being forced to work in a much more limited way is kind of antithetical to the modular idea in the first place.

In theory an individual module could still do computations internally at these much higher rates, but the format then would force implicit rate conversions at all inputs and outputs of each module. This adds latency which will mess up feedback patches, and is not a truly modular solution.

Of course there are then huge technical challenges in how to optimally run DSP at much higher rates (i.e. 10 MHz), in particular resonant filters become very difficult due to numerical quantization effects. Third-party developers would need to be given lots of “blocks” to get around these issues, and it’s not clear the appropriate research has even been done. Aside from the filtering problem, there’s the fact that higher rates would otherwise favor a return to integer or even low-bit computations, due to the ability to shape quantization noise. The point is that raw DSP would become very “weird”, and probably unfriendly to developers who have not grown up in this alternative path – so that another API layer would almost have to be developed and standardized to attract developers at all. A great candidate for the API would be simply a collection of analog circuit elements plus a few other ‘ideal’ modules. The point is while this totally different approach to DSP will yield “true modularity” on the part of users, it may yield just the opposite for developers, favoring only ‘closed’ approaches.

Anyway, these considerations are probably irrelevant to most. VCV seems to keep growing in popularity, and its accessibility ($0 vs. > $10K in most equivalent hardware setups, considering the usual levels of patch complexity) is obviously unmatched. But I see VCV as continuous with all-hardware approaches (i.e. doing everything with modular rather than using keyboards+MIDI) rather than as anything related specifically to DAWs.

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I use VCV Rack pretty heavily these days, and while I did try using it with the Bridge while that was still supported, I quickly ditched that and went back to using it standalone.

My preference for this working this way? Freedom from the tyranny of the grid/timeline/master clock.

When I’m working with Ableton Live (or any DAW really), I tend to think in terms of time-based boundaries. This isn’t always a bad thing of course, but sometimes it’s an obstacle. As far as Ableton Live is concerned, there are definitely some simple and fun remedies for this with things like Max For Live.

Using VCV Rack standalone is the opposite of what I’ve just described…rather than giving consideration to how I might circumvent the master clock, or the rigidity of bars.beats.ticks, getting everything synchronized is something I can think about after the fact. Or not at all. I find this perspective refreshing to say the least.

Last night I had a lot of fun generating polyphonic MIDI from VCV Rack, sending that out to a few different MIDI channels on an Ensoniq VFX, and then recording the audio from the VFX back into Ultomaton. The results were a world away from what I likely would have done if I started generating MIDI with Ableton Live. I probably spend just as much time sending MIDI out from VCV Rack as I do using it to generate audio.

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That’s interesting! I hadn’t thought about VCV Rack in that way. What do you use for MIDI sequencing in VCV? I’ve just started digging into the different user libraries and it’s very daunting.

Freedom from the tyranny of the grid/timeline/master clock.

Yeah, this is a big one. I recently came across a Second Woman interview that made it clear their entire project’s guiding principle was in escaping from the rigidity of DAW grids and rules. They built / commissioned a software suite in Max that lets them manipulate all of the timing, meter, etc. in Ableton in real time.

But those of us who use VCV Rack are lucky because you don’t need to customize Ableton to make it do something it wasn’t designed to. Like, just use the Marbles / Random Sampler module and you’re already well on your way to nonlinearity, synced time-bending, and generative sequencing.

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Ah well last night I was using the NoteSeq module from JW as my main sequencer (always my goto when thinking polyphonically), and then I also had two ADDR-SEQ modules from Bog Audio for adding some additional notes every now and then. I love the ADDR-SEQ because they’re tiny, simple, and useful.

I also use the Bene sequencer from dBiz alot because it maps rather nicely to the Midi Fighter Twister (Bene is sort of a MN Rene clone).

Polyphony and MIDI sequencing with VCV is really fun. You can get pretty weird with it. One of the things I like doing is taking the polyphonic gate output from NoteSeq, splitting it into 4, delaying each of those 4 split triggers by different amounts (or maybe alternating amounts care of an ADDR-SEQ), and then merging those 4 delayed triggers back with everything else before sending out to a MIDI port. It basically splits apart chords coming out of NoteSeq into little strums and or subsequences.

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Also, I should add that these monome modules have totally sold me on getting a real grid to use with VCV Rack. I often use the meadowphysics module with the virtual grid.

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I use VCV (@ht73 I use an ES-8 to patch out to an analog filter), Ableton Live (mostly for max for live), and Bitwig (excellent MPE support) at different times for different reasons. VCV gets an increasing share of my time. Lacks an arrangement view though.

I would be curious to hear what kind of stuff you ended up coming up with and maybe hearing about your process a bit more. I’ve barely dipped my route in to Vcv track and have found it intriguing, but complex. I was probably going to move over to the iPad fork, miRack in the next week or two and begin experimenting.

I’ve added this to my template, works beautifully.

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For sure! Has zilch to do with an arrangement view (which is still a different thing from a clip launcher, which is still a different thing from a sequential switch).

I don’t mean to suggest arrangement is impossible in VCV. I just mean you can’t use it to place audio clips on a horizontal timeline, and that’s what most people think of when you say “DAW”.

I use Reaktor quite a lot. If I’m using Blocks, I prefer to use it outside a DAW as being closer to a modular paradigm (YMMV on that, I guess) - try to rely more on modulation & sequencing from the Blocks themselves etc.

here are various downsides (lack of straightforward multi-track recording, lower sample rate recordings internally etc). Main benefit (other than different way of thinking as noted by people previously) is freeing up CPU not having to run a DAW at the same time (although obviously offset by Reaktor not being multi-core).

Would love to try these out. Any help/good online guides that can help a git noob (on windows) make sense of the instructions?

How do I use this?

How do I use this?

The master branch is now compatible with Rack 1.0. For Rack 0.6.2, check the v0.6 branch.

We now have experimental CI builds on the Releases page. These builds are built against the prerelease Rack SDK version 1.dev.439b3f6 .

This plugin has been built and tested on the following platforms, though bugs and issues still exist.

  • Mac OS X 10.13
  • Windows 10
  • Ubuntu 16.04

To build with the Rack SDK:

  • Clone this repo.

$ git clone https://github.com/Dewb/monome-rack

  • Change into the monome-rack folder and clone the plugin’s submodules with git submodule update --init --recursive

$ cd monome-rack $ git submodule update --init --recursive

  • Download the Rack SDK.

$ curl -O https://vcvrack.com/downloads/Rack-SDK-1.dev.439b3f6.zip $ unzip Rack-SDK-1.dev.439b3f6.zip

  • Build with make .

$ RACK_DIR=$(PWD)/Rack-SDK make

Download the windows zip file under Assets on this page: https://github.com/Dewb/monome-rack/releases

And put it in the vcv rack plugins folder as described here: https://vcvrack.com/manual/Installing.html#installing-plugins-not-available-on-the-plugin-manager

I’m not at my windows machine at the moment to verify but that should be all you need to do.

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Sure, I can post something a bit later hopefully.

As for the complexity, I find it much more comfortable when I limit how many modules I have in any given patch. I enforce this by setting my zoom level to 164%…on my 27" display this limits me to two rows/6u and what looks like 104-ish HP. It’s also easier on my aging eyes.

It’s so very tempting to right-click and go searching through the enormous module library to try and find fun new shiny things, but I definitely get more stuff done when I restrict how many modules I have on screen and then focus on really exploring what fits in that limited space.

Easy as that! Thank you thank you! :smiley:

I would consider that a strength actually.

Which is not to say linear development is ‘bad’, just that there’s no reason it can’t be done in a fully modular setup. Maybe we just don’t have the right modules.

How much of this is best done ‘live’, and how much aided by other modules and pre-programmed content is a question that has yet to be settled. Perhaps the surface has not really been scratched.

It does surface the question as to the best arrangement of event schedulers, mutes, and other automation controls. How much of this can be collected into a single ‘arranger module’ and what would the interface be? Certainly the idea of a ‘module’ can and should go far beyond just something with jacks and knobs. Or how much of this can be broken down into smaller and simpler modules? Then, what else is possible for those who wish to use these arranger components in a more generative fashion? How also can such thinking and development influence hardware design for those who prefer to stay in that world?

I feel horizontal arrangement of audio clips on a timeline is pretty orthogonal to the modular mindset.

I think it’s OK to have different mindsets (and toolsets) at different times for different reasons.

My workflow (when using modular systems) is: record a bunch of audio and either call it “done”, or, occasionally, bring the audio into a timeline view for a little cut/paste/edit. I typically don’t enjoy timeline editing (feels like using excel to make music) but there are times when it’s easier than the alternatives (if I keep it to the bare minimum).