#163

I couldn’t agree more with all of this. I became bored of my own music before I’d even finished it because it felt like it was on rails. That’s not the DAWs fault, per se, more a result of how I have always worked within a DAW environment. I’m sure I could certainly have changed my approach but after working with DAWs for over 20 years it has proven much more effective to turn away from them towards something else rather than attempt to change the habits of half a lifetime.

Going to seek out the Rick Beato video now - thanks!

2 Likes
#164

@t3h links it above ^^^^^.

It’s nothing new but he lays it out the issue really well.

2 Likes
#165

I guess even before DAWs musicians and producers worried about this stuff - Brian Eno’s creative strategies (to name a single famous example - he was far from the only producer thinking about this stuff) were all designed to get him and the band he was working with away from the “rails”

1 Like
#166

There’s probably an argument to suggest that the human brain often seeks to create order in the things it sees but enjoys surprise (an apparent lack of order) as an aural experience. I’ve no idea if I’m talking out of my hat here, I will openly admit!

1 Like
#167

Indeed, because in the end, making music isn’t the only goal. Buying shinny things or talking about subjects you find fascinating is also part of the goal, or part of the process, whether it’s gear, plugins, cars, or whatnot. It’s rather obvious if you think about it that there are more elements than productivity or creativity that people cater to with music.

Personally the people I enjoy the most in the modular community are the people who see it as a hobby and an obsession. You can see them smiling like small children at big events! It’s kind of fun talking with grown ups who are so childishly happy when talking about gear.

3 Likes
#168

Bingo! I used to make lots of great music on computers in high school and college - but once my full-time job became sitting in front of a computer, I found that the tool was deterring me from wanting to make more music, if it meant staring at a screen any longer. Getting into modular made enjoy the music making process much more - but if I was doing music full-time i would definitely be using computers for a larger portion of my musical work.

5 Likes
#169

Thanks for sharing this video @t3h. As a person who has been playing drums for 15+ years, the video linked really hits home for me. I had to beg people a few years ago to not touch my drum takes with beat detective/tab to transient editing.

I’ve been experimenting with electronic music seriously for about 2 or 3 years now. Though I’ve had shown interest for much longer. Personally, as someone who is used to playing an immensely immediate acoustic instrument (drums, you hit them and it makes sound), translating that same immediacy to a DAW was really tough for me. It wasn’t until after I purchased an OP-1 that I realized there are interesting tools that can feel like an instrument and maybe not so much data entry. Now that I have made the leap into Eurorack, I really feel like I’ve found my place and preferred workflow. I don’t knock people who are more comfortable using computers while making music, especially for electronic stuff. But when it comes to recording acoustic instruments… don’t touch my drum takes :upside_down_face:

5 Likes
#170

If the computer legitimately gets in their way, good on them for stepping away from it. My problem is the idea that anyone who sacrifices less in their journey is somehow not doing it right. Because, again, this is a journey towards something.

(I actually am an “away from” kind of guy. I’m real good at identifying weak spots. See problem, fix problem. But that’s what draws my attention. Once I’m actually motivated to do something about it, I need a “towards” to maintain focus.)

Let’s see if I can’t make sense of that last bit.

If you’re exploring a DAWless path, it’s important to understand what aspects of using a DAW were doing you harm. That’s the first thing. The DAW itself might only be part of the problem, but more likely only part of the DAW was the problem to begin with. For me, it’s the compulsion to revise and edit, pulling me out of the moment. I’m in post-production when I should be free associating.

I think you also need a vision of what life without those negative aspects might look like.

For me, it looks like walking into a jam with all of my instruments and equipment ready to play, so I don’t have to mess with that once we’ve started. It looks like us playing through songs from start to finish, whatever that means, without interruption. Being able to start the next song immediately, without having to reconfigure anything.

Guitarists can do it. Bassists can do it. Singers can do it. Drummers can do it. My ideal setup would be just as flexible.

Once you have that vision, you can steer towards the tools which give you what you’re after, and away from tools which detract from it.

(does this mean I can’t use a laptop? probably not. why would it mean that? but I do need to close the lid while we’re playing)

The key is just knowing what you’re after. And how the things you’re avoiding play into that.

So many people are missing this step.

Again, “DAWless” is a clumsy name to describe something bigger than tool selection. Don’t lose sight of your actual goals.

2 Likes
#171

My last band, the drummer mixed both of our albums. He adjusted some sloppiness at his discretion, and he did record with a click track, but we still ended up with organic timing. Essentially, we ended up with the take he would have eventually recorded anyway, if we’d let him keep recording takes a while longer.

From there, he adjusted everyone else’s timing. Not quantizing to a rigid grid, but still tightening up the groove he’d established.

End result was much cleaner. It had all the benefits that people use beat detective to obtain, but it actually rocked like it’s supposed to. People have commented that it felt like our live energy.

The only downside was that he had to dedicate the time to making this happen, where a flat quantize operation might have been only three mouse clicks.

So, yeah. That’s my advice.
Let someone who intuitively knows what the timing should feel like handle the timing.

It works real good.

4 Likes
#172

All of this resonates with me! As a drummer we have the choice (depending on your skill set) to play behind, directly on, or in front of the click. You can really establish a feel for the track, without maybe adjusting the BPM, just by where the drums sit. Now here is where maybe I’m getting off topic from the thread but I think it’s relevant to quantization.

It sounds like your band tracked individually, right? Do you think that you would have had the urge to quantize at all if there was the possibility of tracking live as a group? Usually when I’m doing session work at most larger studios, we track as a group which I believe helps create a solid backbone to the song. I find it rather difficult to sync up to a pre-existing track rather than sit in the same room with a band or artist and just play.

1 Like
#173

Reading the title of this I thought this thread was going to be about not agonising too much about the little details of specs or which model etc and just buying something reputable in your budget as it will most likely do the job.

Obviously not :joy:

But that is actually a point worth making I guess. Also, don’t think you need the biggest/most powerful thing ever as you probably don’t. Just saved my cousin from being sold a 10 core i9 extreme system with 128GB of RAM by some unscrupulus custom PC builder, he doesn’t need that, neither do I and you probably don’t either.

1 Like
#174

LOL this thread is a runaway train never coming back, and I’m fine with that. I originally posted this because of the absolute SEA of “what should I buy” posts that plague electronic music forums. In those threads, no one ever, ever says “a computer”. Using hardware has become a weird purity test for a lot of folks, and my only hope is that folks at least have some exposure to the idea that lots of people use computers and it doesn’t make us “less serious” artists, or less technical, or whatever. You even see a lot of that idea passive-aggressively tossed about in this thread - people are really, really attached to the idea that DAWs make EDM.
And my intention was definitely to encourage people not to agonize about this topic, or about little specs and technicalities.

4 Likes
#175

Since nobody complained, and my question actually got a few approval likes, the topic “Just Buy a Computer” was merged with this pre-existing one. I’ve updated the title to clarify on this.

8 Likes
#176

Oh, I basically agree. Not being an electronic musician, primarily, 15% of what I do starts in a computer but 100% of it ends there. I have plans for some new stuff this year which might add a lot more hardware to my set-up but I agree, the best investment you can make if you are starting to make music is a computer and interface.

Learning about synthesis for example though might be a different story.

1 Like
#177

I think learning synthesis with something like Pure Data could be better for some people than learning with a hardware synth.

3 Likes
#178

I guess that is also extremely valid. Perhaps I am just here to violently agree with everyone :sweat_smile:

1 Like
#179

After a couple of very productive and fulfilling years making music with only modular hardware, I felt it was time to bring Logic (my only DAW) back into the creative process. Having accumulated a lot more modules than I had when I eschewed Logic, I wanted a second MIDI to CV module. A couple of days ago, I bought a Doepfer A-190-5. Oh the irony of needing a module to reincorporate a DAW.

#180

That is true of a lot of forums, but thankfully not here.

This is definitely a computer friendly community, given that for a lot of Monome’s history it’s only worked with computers and that’s still a huge part of the use case… Not that this place is all about Monome, but it was the seed. There are active threads about programming, Max/MSP, PD, SuperCollider, Lua, VCV, RaspberryPi, etc…

Computer != DAW, as we can see from my examples above. It can be an amazingly creative environment if it’s setup as one. One of the issues people run into is often that their computer is setup and optimized for work or leisure purposes, so the environment isn’t conducive to easily just getting into their music and creative headspace.

I generally eschew anything that is dogmatic and/or about “purity”, use what you like to use and helps you make your art.

12 Likes
#181

It’s a lesson I picked up from a different approach, having never been a drummer myself. I started off producing hip-hop which is obviously dedicated to the drum on many levels. I studied why certain breaks had a better feel than others and (aside from the kit itself or the way it was recorded) a lot of it is about the feel - the timing of it. Through experimentation I realised that keeping the 1 and 3 on beat meant I could take serious liberties with the 1 and 4 (and from this point follows the essence of what we can refer to in shorthand as post-Dilla hip-hop drum programming…)

#182

I can identify with this 100%. It still has a pretty massive impact on the amount of time I spend composing on the computer unfortunately, and there are sometimes days where I won’t touch the computer at all after work. I’ll just sit down with a notebook after work and dream up something to try out later on.

In general though something that’s helped me, and might not be possible in every computer job, is to do as much of my work on paper as possible, and just sit down at the computer when I absolutely have to use it to accomplish something. In other words I try to do my thinking and planning away from the computer when I can. That applies to music as well. It does seem to help.

I went through a stressful work period where I’d actually lock my computer away in a closet after work because I couldn’t stand to even look at it and ended up discovering that lots of what I thought I needed to do on the computer I could do in a notebook.

4 Likes