definitely in the same space - user patches etc but different communities - although some overlaps as I’m sure you’ve noticed. As noted great community for Organelle too and lots of interesting patches. Can’t go wrong with either…

From a dev point of view I prefer the Norns - but that’s just personal preference - despite knowing PD quite well I do prefer text based coding so Lua/Supercollider suits me better

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I’m not experienced with programming so it’s not really something I expect to focus much on, except maybe with the Organelle as I feel the visual language of PD might be more intuitive to me. What do you feel are the strengths and weaknesses of the Norns and the Organelle?

Do you know I’m not sure I can pick - they both have a bunch of interesting patches and active communities, they both have a lot of interesting experimental stuff. I’d not worry about owning either if I was a non coder - you’ll still be kept busy,

Organelle is a bit cheaper - standalone with the built in keyboard but screen is a bit limited. Norns gets you into ‘monome world’ - and yes I now have a grid, an ansible, a teletype and am waiting impatiently on a crow - so slippery slope

glad I have both though and use them both

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I hate to say it on this forum which is truly dear to my heart but the monome ecosystem has been cost prohibitive for me, so I’m content to lurk on that front for now. That to me is the downside of norns.

Overall norns seems to live more on the bleeding edge, which can be both good and bad, I suppose.

I would really really like to have MLR working outside of Max though ;(

Edit - I hope that for many it’s not an either/or proposition! Or would that be neither/norns? :wink:

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I disagree. Rather that Norns is still in relatively early stages of development relative to Organelle which has a few years head start.

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would you recommend it to someone working on tape loops/experimental ambient music?

Absolutely. Experimental/ambient/drone/noise might be the ideal use case for the Organelle, really. Some interesting, exploratory, highly usable patches to browse through from Kyle Werle, shreeswifty (exclusive stuff on his patreon too) and others. If you search around the forums and elsewhere, shreeswifty has emulated all kinds of devices you might love to have access to - Morphagene, Count to Five, Infinite Jets. Or you can just spend time entirely within ORAC building things if you choose, which is singlehandedly worth the price of admission. If you have an idea for 3 different non-linear real-time samplers clocked together and operating in parallel while processing your guitar, for example, you can map out the flow on a sketchpad and have a fully working prototype via ORAC in under an hour, which is very satisfying. Instant Fennesz?

And how does the Norns compare?

Impossible to say at this very early stage in its life. I have one, but have only dipped my toes into it. There’s no large user library to speak of yet, 2.0 firmware is just around the corner, so is Crow. Owning a Norns is all about the long game. The community will probably still be active in a decade or two, going through occasional slumps and second, third, fourth winds, just like Grids and the rest of the Monome ecosystem gets progressively better and more robust as time goes on. The building blocks are all (almost) there, and are very promising. It’s also designed in a clever way so that it’s relatively easy for users to tweak how their particular control and UI works (through lua which is pretty accessible), and that’s enough to customize things to your liking without needing to get into the supercollider-based sound engine / DSP stuff if you don’t have the time or inclination.

Yay norns: tiny and portable with rechargeable battery; great built-in tape-style recording and mixing turns it into a viable field recorder and audio sketchpad; plays well with grids, knobby controllers, and eurorack (soon); a handful of killer apps like MLR with much more to come down the pipeline; native wi-fi for wireless transfer and patch building; line coding through lua and supercollider just fits some people’s brains and ways of building more than visual patching stuff like puredata (I could spend a full day trying to wrap my head around what’s going on in someone’s PD patch, when the same thing in commented code would probably take me 15 minutes to grasp and tweak to my liking); more processor power and all-around more technical capability than the Organelle (if you’re an ORAC user, you will probably hit up against the CPU limits at some point sooner or later and will have to learn what the ceilings of the device running multiple patches at once are).

Yay organelle: already a vast user library you can spend years happily exploring; new first-party C&G patches fairly regularly, and they seem to be getting better in quality; built-in keyboard makes it a complete hands-on instrument without bringing in a controller; ORAC is the rug that makes the whole room come together, and lets you build systems without having any PD knowledge; ORAC 2.0 in the pipeline for more modularity goodness; it has a playful and accessible look and feel, which makes it seem something like an open-ended and evolving OP-1; visual patching will be easier and more understandable for some than line coding; no wi-fi out of the box, but an official wi-fi nub is a cheap addition; no portable power out of the box, but easy enough to get it working with a battery pack of your choice.

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Have a look on the C&G forum — there was apparently a manufacturing defect in some keypads which makes them hard to push and sometimes cause retriggers. Sent them a message and they had a replacement in the mail the next day. The difference is night and day.

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Thank you so much for the thorough reply! It really does help clear things up for me. I didn’t realize Norns was so early in development. I would say of the two the Organelle appeals to me more, but is there something out there that I’m not considering that would fit into my workflow/genre better, at a (relatively) similar price point? Is it worth trying to save for an OP-1?

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OP-1s are very fun and well-designed, but they intentionally have a small number of engines - half a dozen or so each for synthesis and effects (with small numbers of parameters), granular sampler, a few sequencer options, modulation section, and great mixer, tape recorder, and compressor at the end. All of which sound pretty good no matter what you do with them. That actually sounds like a lot of functionality when I write it down like that! The recent doubling of the price makes these a luxury item I can’t recommend, though, unless you can find someone willing to sell at the old-ish going rate of ~$650-750. I personally sold my OP-1 to fund an Organelle among other things, and don’t regret it for a second. The Organelle is a deep universe you can wander in forever and occasionally get lost in asteroid belts, whereas the OP-1 is a single lush green planet that you can call home and settle down in. Depends on your needs. I’m an explorer and experimenter, so I’ll take the universe. The things you could potentially do with that Volca FM paired with an Organelle make me preemptively jealous of you…!

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Interesting that you sold the OP-1 for the Organelle. I’m not really in the market for it because of the price point but I wanted to get a feel for how you felt it fit into an experimental workflow. It seems to really be tailored towards beats and such. I hadn’t considered interfacing the FM with the Organelle, what sort of functionality would that have?

Organelle is great as an effects engine. I’ve used it with other synths to sample them and replay them, or to use the delays/vocoders/frequency shifters with them.

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what @12eightyseven said - it’s great (maybe the best little box I know of) for unconventional effects, sampling bits and pieces of hardware synths, strange looping ideas, musique concrete, etc. The Volca FM itself can get into wonderful outer limits timbral territory, so that’s a really great little desktop / portable setup for experiments of all kinds. (I should mention that there’s also some pretty good FM synthesis implementation in a popular Organelle user patch)

I ignored the drum engine and beats on the OP-1, fwiw, and barely touched the sampling engine. Used it for lovely digital FM/phase/whatever synthesis, tape reel shenanigans, wildly modulated digital effects (the MIDI CC modulation was great fun through a program like Numerology) and generally as an ambient/noise machine. Very capable as such.

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I’m leery of sharing any music I make as representative of demoing gear, so grain of salt, but just to get some OP-1 experimental sounds out into the ether, the first two tracks of this record are live-played improvised OP-1 with no overdubs or edits, just some light DAW processing. The first track “Appearing” is me manually playing one of the synthesis engines while simultaneously tweaking parameters and the tape reel (for that BoC seasick effect). The second “Mary” is OP-1 live processing and looping me as I ‘play’ some wine glasses with water in them while also mangling effects and tape reel in different ways (this was from one of the early Disquiet Junto projects, actually).

(Not ready to share any Organelle pieces yet as I don’t know what will end up on a future record)

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Thanks for the links, I’ll check them out. Also, do you have an opinion on the Digitakt? I forgot to ask

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Digitakt would be good for ambient too! Really powerful as a sampler and a single cycle waveform synthesizer. Thought I would be limited by the sequencer but with conditional trigs it’s actually a very inspiring ambient machine!

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So this is sort of something I’ve been thinking of that I would really like on the Organelle. I would like a ridiculous loop machine that could run a bunch of max. 15 second loops at various speeds in tandem. The four knobs would control start and end position, pitch, and individual loop volume. Each loop would be assigned to a key. I’m thinking if I got one this would be a feature I’d like to have. Is this possible or does this exist?

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Kind of a big topic on its own, but I do have a Digitakt and love it. (I swear I don’t have everything ever, we just have similar tastes in gear.) has some significant limitations, some of which are welcome and some of which are head scratchers (no song mode), but overall it’s a great streamlined workflow, immediate, gratifying, and it has some special mojo that makes samples sound great. With Overbridge (tried it out in beta) it’s also an audio interface and all of its channels can get separate tracks for individual DAW fx/mastering, and you can use the plugin to automate and modulate everything. The DT made sampling completely click for me for the first time. Some links of interest:
Jogging House uses Digitakt for dreamy ambient
Generative Digitakt using the “MIDI loopback” trick

I’m not sure if there’s any sampler that has the exact specific functionality you describe, but some of the official sampler patches come very, very close. I would check out the patch notes and video for “Jeraphy”, for example.

Since it’s possible my comments might have been misinterpreted, I would like to say that I agree with the above. I was simply pointing out that the Organelle (released as far as I can tell in 2015), has had more time to mature and for users to generate additional content, than Norns (released in 2018).

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I guess that’s one of my bigger concerns with the Norns, I think a lot of it’s functionality comes from interfacing with other products and that seems like a lot to bite off right now. Also, it’s just really tricky for me to pin down what exactly it’s good at.