#99

Apologies. I quoted you but didn’t mean to imply my question was only related to your comment. Others have also mentioned or seemingly implied; I just seem to have missed where it might have originated from.

#100

i think the clearest example is the, to use maztik8r’s term, “learn it or leave it” attitude (not exactly the same as “everything is perfect” but I think the closest to that extreme that I’ve seen) which is exemplified in alanza’s response to me above, and was present in the interaction that sparked this discussion that has been deleted and/or may or may not be in this thread since it was before split. I agree with you, this is not a prevailing feeling I get from interactions or discussions in these parts or even within this thread specifically. The fact that the comments that inspired my feeling of bewilderment at the “defensiveness” have been deleted probably means that upon reflection they were not very firmly held views and were more first-reactions. (I’m not sure how to treat deleted comments, I don’t think they’re irrelevant but I have no interest in “calling out” or anything like that since they have been stricken from the record for a reason).

For me, this is not the point to dwell on because as I continually repeat I think there is good effort being taken. Even alanza’s comment, for example, I don’t think was made in bad faith and I believe I understand where alanza is coming from. My interest is merely in trying to encourage a continued focus on accessibility! For people of different backgrounds, education level, economic opportunity, etc. etc.

edit: to reiterate what I already said in terms of the “how”, I would like to see more user made videos on these things, but that’s hard to ask for and can only arise ~naturally~ by someone being willing and able and interested in doing that sort of work. It is difficult because I don’t know what I don’t know, but I think the point about there being many different avenues for learning a coding language and only the teletype studies (and this forum) for learning teletype is meaningful. Being able to hear the same thing in different voices can be very helpful! Not sure this really gives us a pathway to a solution, but that’s the best I have for now…

1 Like
#101

And, THIS, is how you can add value as a non-technical, or novice user. Rather than say “I don’t understand, make it better!” (and I’m exaggerating to make a point, and not finger pointing), take the time to try and elaborate on what is unclear, and when you do have that “aha!” moment, think about whether you can help improve the docs for the next guy in line or Lines (sorry/not sorry for the pun, couldn’t help myself).

The feeling of not knowing where to start with Teletype does resonate. One way to tackle this is to try to pick apart the examples, and maybe even try to rebuild them line by line.

2 Likes
#102

The studies are great and have great examples, but when it comes time to do something on my own it would be nice to see those same examples either within or linked to from the documentation for the individual commands used in those examples.

I’d like each command to have its own page. Each page would have multiple examples of usage for that command and a “related commands” section.

I find it hard to remember the value ranges for N vs V vs VV. It would be nice to see their values mapped out in a table.

Compared to Teletype, Maths is a relatively simple module. There are multiple videos out there explaining the basic functionality as well as much more esoteric usages. The Teletype studies videos are the only videos I’ve found that talk about how to use the module.

I’m not demanding that anybody do any of these things and as a first step, I was going to create the N, V, VV table myself.

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#105

(off topic: this transactional way of thinking about it is too limited a framework and reduces both you and “monome” down to consumer and producer. On one level that is true, just as on one level adam smith had a halfway decent understanding of market forces, but it is far too simplistic. This whole forum is a testament to the mission of monome as a company which has more interest in fostering ecosystems or platforms of creation than in delivering x to y, maximizing profits, etc.)

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#106

Accessibility is the issue, not the desire of the aspirant, or their innate ability. This is about opening doors. And I have a feeling that doors are opening, just not as quickly as some might hope.

I’ve told the following to every organization I’ve ever been part of: making products inclusive and accessible is either a priority or it isn’t, and if it isn’t, that’s OK, but let’s not pretend that poor accessibility it’s the fault of the consumer - it’s the choice of the producer. If you aspire to be inclusive, act inclusively.

What we are experiencing now is, I believe, evidence of deep frustration that another fabulous, long-anticipated product appears to have been designed (as documentation is part of design) to be usable by only a subset of our community. And that hurts. It will hurt less when it becomes more accessible. Which should be a priority.

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#107

I might be willing to make some videos for Teletype, time permitting. Are you looking for starting from zero type content?

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#108

amazing! personally, I understand the basics – know the ins and outs the way the language functions and can make something very basic by referring back to documentation and then making corrections or deleting things when they don’t work as intended. I look at other peoples codes they post on here and they seem impenetrable to me, so the content I would want is somewhere in the middle – putting the level-0 building blocks together I suppose. There feels like a big jump in the teletype studies from level 0 to something much higher, which I know is a matter of practice and time but would love to see someone doing this. Let me know if that doesn’t make sense :stuck_out_tongue:

#109

This absolutely.

There is a dynamic equilibrium between being a customer and being a crew member on the Enterprise…

My choice is to identify as a crew member, but I can understand the perspective of being a customer… (As a college teacher I would be interested in a different discussion about the idea that students are consumers…)

At any rate, the potential relationship between the individual community member and the community as a whole infinitely transcends a merely transactional one. I have read the expressions by many of “love” for this community and its members, its mindset and the opportunities for growth in art, skills and friendship that are manifestly on offer to any who wishes to partake…

That said, there are also generally acknowledged opportunities for making aspects of the learning process more accessible… There are learning differences, and diversity in skills and knowledge, which can make it challenging to even get started…

My hope is that through these discussions there might emerge some energy towards tending the garden to make it a bit easier for new folks to join in this fantastic voyage…

I offer whatever skills I have, largely in proofreading and editing, curriculum development and general problem-solving (lawyering derived professionally), to any self-motivating team that might want to gather around these kinds of issues…

So many amazing developments here come from self-starters, often working alone at first… But eventually refined by exposure to the hive mind…

This is in no way critical or complaining, just trying to help improve things in the way I feel called to in my heart…

Thanks for listening, please get in touch if you want to continue this discussion…

I do believe this could be lifted out of the Crow thread, it may be a Meta topic at this point…

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#110

It makes sense. Frankly, if I go back and look at some of the more complex projects I’ve made with Teletype (say, pillar or axe thing one) it takes me a while to understand them again. I can see where it would be pretty challenging for someone who is trying to learn to decipher them.

The modular videos I’ve made (mostly for ER-301) tend to be pretty conversational and unpolished, usually just one-take let the camera roll kinds of things. Trying to take them to the next level of ‘pro’ adds a ton of time and work and basically turns the whole thing into a non-starter for me. But if there’s value in doing something along those lines for Teletype, I’ll think about what I might be able to pull together.

8 Likes
#111

regarding the general question of how to target user docs, a while back i saw a presentation by anita sarma about gender-inclusiveness in software developer tools (my wheelhouse) that was fascinating and i think very relevant here. what i took away was how there are a number of distinctly different (and possibly largely disjunct) ways to learn and approach new tools. the talk was largely around the clustering that occurs around gender but there are also strong clusters around other things (native language, socio-economics, etc). the rub for me was that i saw our approach to documentation in a wholly new way. we had fully embraced a kind of “inteprid, tech-comfortable, coding adventurer” persona who is comfortable learning as they go but this in fact came at the expense of folks who were naturally more risk adverse and would prefer a more linear, show-me-your-cards and up-front narrative.

the take-away for me (and what is i think coming up here) is that a well-documented thing might actually benefit from multiple documentation arcs that correspond to the different personas (for lack of a better word). the super good news here is that we have an amazing community here with a lot of successes already. (who hasn’t learned infinitely from @okyeron’s excellent i2c write-up, @scanner_darkly’s generous TT work, @dan_derks’s tireless attention to detail, @zebra’s deep-dives, @tehn’s patient explanations, etc? and obviously the list goes on!)

so yeah, onward! crow is an amazing thing. i’ve been lucky enough to play with one and can testify that it fulfills it’s promise and is really not at all like anything else. it’s open-endedness presents some real challenges to documentation for sure, but together we’ll get there and we’re off to an awesome start already no?

cheers all! :beers:

looking through sarma’s publications, i’d say Gender-Inclusiveness Personas vs. Stereotyping: Can We Have it Both Ways? is the most directly relevant to the talk i saw but really there’s so much of sarma’s work that is on point; ping me if you want to chat!

13 Likes
#112

while i think i agree with where you’re going, one thing this implies isn’t quite right. that is, i don’t believe crow was designed intentionally to exclude any members of the community. my sense is that @Trent and @tehn (and needless to say @zebra) care deeply about inclusivity but maybe at times sit too close to the metal to see things through a novice’s lens. that said, in my experience, they are hugely embracing of improvements to docs and UX that improve things. that’s where we fit in and how this works more as a collaboration and community effort.

aside (and i hope not flame-baiting): my take is that crow, like all things in this ecosystem, is very much a work in progress. it was a long time in coming and won’t be fully baked until we make it so. this approach to releases is pretty interesting and IMO extremely inclusive. by putting things out in the world before they’re totally done @tehn and co are essentially inviting us all into a process of design and iteration. cool, huh? that said, totally not for everyone. what surprises me about this thread is that folks haven’t embraced this cost of doing business more. buying a first-run crow is very different than buying a Disting. to be perfectly honest, i think it will be a while before crow totally stabilizes but then i think that comes with the territory and the upside, that we all get to help steer it to be the thing we all imagine we want is worth it. i wouldn’t be here if i didn’t!

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#113

Thank you for calling this out. I was did not intend to imply (and I am sorry if anyone inferred) that there was an intentional exclusion. But in the enthusiasm (and it is warranted - this is an amazing accomplishment) to get this into the hands of capable users, less capable ones are left behind. Which is not the end of the world (see below).

As I said much more eloquently 2 days ago:

… so I’ll just leave it there. We’ll get there. And it’s important for me to add that above all, I trust @trent and @tehn and @zebra and @alanza and @dan_derks and any number of you bright, lovely people to reach back and offer the rest of us a hand-up. It’s the Lines way to take care of each other.

All that said I’m glad I raised my hand and spoke up. Having done so, I’m happy to sit down.

4 Likes
#114

I know I would be!!! Your ER301 videos were essential in my grasping that module :pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::muscle:

4 Likes
#115

7 posts were merged into an existing topic: Github Basics

#122

Just want to publicly say thanks to everyone on this forum that has ever helped me out with any of the various questions I have asked on a wide range of topics. I have asked for much here and have never gone without a reply; a generosity received that is not equal to that which I have put in.

Also want to express my experience where any time I feel there was a gap in my understanding of how something or another worked due to a lack of documentation that was meaningful/helpful to my specific way of learning AND where I was hesitant to ask publicly (etc) for whatever reason, it was only a matter of time until a resource magically appeared. My fav example is the JF technical map. Had been scratching my head at doing anything beyond the most surface usage of the module and then one day that just showed up. There is a collective unconsciousness on the this forum that given enough time rises all of our understanding up.

Crow will be my first official monome product. I have maybe 10% knowledge of it’s potential and know full well my programming chops (very minimal) will be a bit of a mountain to climb. I saw “usb, 2 in, 4 out, 2hp, and scripts”. Normally, that wouldn’t be enough to purchase. But because I see Crows less as a ‘product’ and more of a ‘project from lines people’, I knew that I would purchase it immediately and that given time and the spirited contributions of the community I would be guaranteed to draw creative juice from it.

Fully stoked and I have no idea what I’m going to do with it.

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#125

i find that the more complex, engaged relationship with monome/manniquins is far more rewarding for me personally. i also have VERY limited time for music related things (maybe an hour a day if i am lucky) and have struggled with TT and /w and norns etc. but i think as a result of pushing through some of those frustrations (still plenty ongoing too) i have in the end made music i am proud of. music i would never have been able to create were it not for these devices and my adapting them to how i think/work.

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#127

no

whether your interaction with a shop or service is online or in-person at a brick-and-mortar, NOBODY welcomes a customer who makes demands just because money has been exchanged

you brought up a decent point about improving documentation but have completely derailed your own argument with extreme agression and unreasonableness (for what reason i don’t know)

i’ve lost count how many features monome have improved on or added to their software/hardware because fans discussed it online & asked politely

we all benefit from that

20 Likes
#128

could have fooled me! :stuck_out_tongue:
i’m right there too… hour a day TOPS unless I want to sacrifice sleep by staying up into the wee hours.

I also to be clear if i wasn’t before, I’m not complaining about the difficulty of figuring this stuff out, but if we’re discussing the documentation I feel compelled to voice my feelings on the matter and directly contrasting @alanza’s comments about how good the studies are, as someone still trying to figure it out, as opposed to someone who is proficient. I have conceded that my life doesn’t currently allow me the time to really dive in and spend the time that learning it all requires. But I also do feel that, and as mentioned, it could very well be my learning style, the current studies don’t necessarily work for well for me. I feel that a video just sort of explaining some of the concepts and terms etc could really unlock some of the concepts for me. The Ansible manual was a bit confusing, but after some of the videos… can’t remember who’s… I figured it all out fairly quickly and can use the manual to look up specific features, options, etc rather easily.

And to reiterate I really appreciate all the hard work of the people that DO spend their time programming, and sharing and helping those of us with less time, knowledge, inclination to program and develop for Norns, TT, etc. I think that is what draws me to the Monome world is the ecosystem that allows me to find uses for these devices in my music making without having to learn the programming.

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#129

Hi all. My apologies for coming off as condescending earlier. I did genuinely mean the “learning is hard” comment. I found @nutritionalzero’s comments incredibly frustrating.

I do think the Teletype studies are actually great, but I’m happy to be wrong about that. I think that there is a big gap between being able to read the studies and being able to consult the manual and learn from it.

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