But it does do OSC. Or you can use the browser based software with its WiFi hotspot, to get a control surface. It’s way more mixer/audio interface than I need, but wow, very capable.

yeah I agree

seems like ~ 4 possible devices may arise out of these discussions

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A more fleshed out iteration of my previous idea. Happy to take this out of this thread if the scope/direction of the conversation is already down a particular path…

EDIT: this thing will run ‘scrips’, not to be confused with ‘scripts’. :slight_smile:

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I really like this idea. To me, there are plenty of existing mixers which do their job just fine and it doesn’t make much sense to recreate something unless it’s for strict design/form purposes.

But what does everyone want a mixer for, and what do they want it do that existing mixers don’t already do?

bradfromraleigh, I really like your idea for a multi-input, 2 output mixer which runs “scrips” … seems like it would potentially do all sorts of fun panning, volume, matrix mixing, modulations!

If not in Eurorack form, maybe a standalone, MOTU interface sized, horizontal standing unit?

I think those are fairly accurate groupings.

for better or worse, I’ve been grouping these by interface, because the affordances each has (or doesn’t have) plays directly into how it would deal with audio.

there’s the normal mixer interface stuff (faders, knobs) which is some vague form of a minimal, small footprint mono or stereo mixer (with the nearness concept sitting in between those two options).

then there’s gestural interface stuff (joystick, fsr/capacitive strips, trill, etc.), which has kinda centered around gestural panning/levels, with a focus on quad channels stuff or other instances where there’s simply more room for those gestures to be meaningful.

not sure if expandable is the right way to think about the last, but they generally seem to be digital devices that are configurable but feature little to no interface beyond patching audio into and out of them (maybe calling them headless makes sense). they could run scripts themselves, interface with other devices (norns), or be designed to live within a eurorack system, or any manner of other things.

to me, these feel like hard splits. attempting to blend these directions into each other in any significant way will likely result in confusion (for both building and using the thing).

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Could something like this be built as firmware for existing modules using Multipass?

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None of the other Trilogy modules or Ansible have the internal framework, that I’m aware of, to attenuate audio - at least not 8 channels of it.

That was the initial concern with this design - it incorporates a lot of VCAs and DACs in a small footprint. There are a lot of chips to cram in. It would also most likely be more expensive than you’d think.

EDIT: you need 18 channels of VCAs - at $2-4 per channel, that’s $36-72 alone. You will need at least as many channels of DACs so figure about $150 just in audio components not including resistors, caps, etc. Whatever you use to control it will also add significantly - say another $10-20 depending (for the purposes of crowd-sourcing, maybe a Teensy?). Then panels, PCBs, headers, etc. This would easily be a $300+ module at retail.

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Agreed, very helpful groupings!

I see what you mean by suggesting that these are hard splits. But I’d draw the opposite lesson: precisely because fruitfully bridging two (or more) of these directions is non-obvious, successfully doing so would be that much more valuable, enough so to be worth a shot at this exploratory stage…

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Thoughts on whether this minimal footprint + midi control direction could/should include some metering capabilities?

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Ansible incorporates LEDs which I excluded from this mock-up. I think utilizing something similar would be ideal but would add significantly to the part count for the purposes of accurate metering (much different than how they are implemented in Ansible, I’m assuming). An alternative may be a separate DIY metering module that could operate off of any of the pin headers on the backside.

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heavily caveating the following as just my point of view…

I think bridging these concepts is very obvious, it’s just also very dangerous if you’re looking to build some even kind of purpose-built.

The K-Mix bridges 2.5 of these three categories and while I own one, I don’t like it at all. It doesn’t do the first section very well, it definitely wouldn’t satisfy someone who’s very into quad channel stuff, and because the interface is trying to split a bunch of different forms of interactions, it doesn’t do the routing things very well either.

I think connecting some kind of gestural controller to the 3rd category (headless audio thingy) could get you section two, but I would never feel good about hard-wiring an opinionated and polarizing control surface to a customizable and user-definable audio i/o box. the lack of an opinion on audio undercuts the inclusion of the interface and the interface undercuts the range of possibilities of the audio routing.

this doesn’t even get to addressing the cost and multidisciplinary effort required to make an everything device. if we not nailing the distinctions between these directions or some nuance therein we should talk about it, but I agree with the sentiment that people should refine each idea into the best concept representing it, because I truly don’t believe one device that does all three is going to be possible.

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i like how the design follows the same form factor as trilogy/ansible modules. another idea to consider is making a companion module that would only have inputs and 2 outputs and would be controlled via i2c from ansible/trilogy (running custom firmware) or teletype - this way you don’t have to worry about USB or other controls and you could probably fit more than 8 inputs in 4hp. or even 2 hp perhaps, nearness style, with 2 outputs and 7 inputs? not sure how feasible it is to fit the required circuitry in 2hp though…

btw you can do something similar already with the disting ex matrix mixer algorithm - 6 inputs, 4 outputs and controllable via i2c.

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That’s super really helpful breakdown of the pitfalls!

Cards on the table: the direction that speaks to me is an augmented simple stereo mixer under an ergonomic UI along the lines of what you were exploring. Where the augmentation enables unusual (+hopefully open-ended/customizable) ways to animate the mix through pre-defined and ergonomic UI interaction points (1-2 macro knobs (+ cv/midi) for the whole mixer (+ maybe 1 button per channel?)). So something like your span idea should be a viable configuration; but hopefully animation options in the directions that @TomWhitwell @_mark and others were suggesting should also be possible.

(From my admittedly biased perspective, the benefit of that direction would be that it holds onto the ergonomic + utility of the kind of design you were proposing, while focusing on open-ended mix animation capabilities w. ergonomic control as the unique selling point that addresses the question ‘why build another simple mixer in a saturated market?’)

Yea - I’ve been thinking about that. You could breakout function per module and add inputs/outputs like the TXi and TXo - bussing them in to headers on the rear. I still like the idea of having a salient module that works without any extras with the entire monome lineup, straight out of the box.

Maybe the compromise is:

  • 1 8-channel input header
  • 1 8-channel output header
  • 1 stereo output header
  • 1 stereo input header

You could daisy chain at least one more of these (how many channels would someone really need in a single euro case) or add additional inputs or outputs at a marginal expense. You might be able to squeeze an additional pair of 8-channel i/o headers or stereo i/o headers but I think we are running out of real estate for a focused-ish module.

EDIT: next question is, are the expansion modules active or passive or a little of both?

For example: one could make a cheap input expansion module that is just a panel and some jacks with an 8-channel header output on the rear. All the VCAs are on the main module. This keeps expansion costs down and might lessen issues regarding modules speaking to each other, digitally.

The alternative is, of course, the expansion modules have their own VCAs, DACs and computer which communicates - driving the cost and complexity up for an expansion while keeping the main module relatively cheaper and obtainable.

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yes! this is exactly what I was proposing! if it’s going to be in euro it seems like just jacks is the way to go, nearness or txo style! didn’t know about the disting matrix mixer that is interesting and promising…

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I’ve resisted getting into this… I’ve always felt like none of the minimal mixers did what I wanted… and that it was likely that there wasn’t enough common interest in the kind of thing I wanted for someone to make it. This thread, which has lots of great ideas - only reinforces that there are many approaches to this object of desire.

That said, emboldend by my recent work in making hardware - I couldn’t resist any more… here’s my thought:

This is a compact, minimal, programmable, 8 to 4, all stereo pair, mixer.

  • 8 stereo in, on 3.5mm jacks
  • inputs have pre-matrix gain control
  • 4 stereo out, on 3.5mm jacks
  • output have post matrix gain control
  • matrix is on/off for each stereo pair to each output bus
  • matrix is under full control of embedded microprocessor
  • S & X buttons allow solo (per bus) and some other as yet unprogrammed function
  • four presets allow quick reconfiguration
  • USB connection for power, and connect to hosts for MIDI and/or OSC
  • processor pre-programmed with features above… but…
    …programmable in either Python or C++ (std. Arduino w/CircuitPython support)

I have done a very preliminary look at components to make this work, and it might fit in that size enclosoure - but I might be being a bit optomistic, but at most 180mm x 240mm…?

Two possible changes:

  • add MIDI in/though on 3.5mm type jacks
  • replace input gain with instead a LPF control - pretty much anything feeding this mixer is goign to have it’s own volume control. The LPF allows a more expressive cut off - if you just need to level something, use the device’s own volume control.
  • going the other way - eliminate the input knobs altogether - again pretty much any device feeding this will have an output volume knob.

Cost would be rather high… very rough guess is $200 bill of materials.

Also… Idea here is a pure analog mixer under digital control. Audio signals don’t go through DAC/ADC. This keeps cost down. It is open if the input &/or output controls are under digital control or not… My base thought, though is not.

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I really like this idea !

Question about the grid: Apart from the matrix routing what do you imagine for the 8x4 grid ? Would it be something like Monome grid buttons or two 4x4 Neotrellis squares with LEDs maybe ? In that case perhaps they could serve as a basic vu-meter ? Or just simple buttons without light ? I guess it will be also be used for muting and soloing with a combination of keys/pads.

I guess this closes the door to the Adat output I wished (it seems I’m the only person wishing that kind of old school but useful digital I/O haha) but that’s not a big deal, if this reduces the cost, that’s better : )

Is there an headphone output ? :slight_smile:

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I like the idea too.

The preset buttons are the four to the top right? If it’s to be programmable, what about having six of those buttons instead, removing the S & X buttons, and make them user-assignable function/macro buttons? Among those functions could be soloing or group muting or full presets or trigger randomization or trigger fade between output channels, etc.

I assume the knobs would be encoders and not pots? Is the offset layout preferred over just a row of 8? Looking at the size, not much bigger than the Eventide Timefactor layout, which is okay for programming a pedal, but I think might be jumbly as a mixer. Plus, when using the Timefactor, I definitely think of them as top row/bottom row rather than a single sequential row.

What chip are you thinking of for this? Would be great to find a way to do noiseless switching

Wow! Didn’t realize folks would like this that much!

I sized (and costed) the grid on the Neotrelis system: So 4x4 pad, a little squishy, with either Neopixels or just bicolor LEDs under each. I think the feedback is essential and worth the cost.

My guiding principle is to make the actual mixer have a simple analog mixing path:

  • VU metering via the grid LEDs wouldn’t be possible - as the microcontroller never sees the signal. I suppose few comparitors might give the CPU access to “signal” and “hot” indication… will have to think on that. Might be easier just to have a few bicolor LEDs with a fixed analog circuit to show “signal present” and “hot”.

  • ADAT or audio over Ethernet (Dante or AVB) all entail a much larger design and cost space. Also - frankly - over my head in ability to design!

  • Headphone out is an interesting idea… If so, keeping it simple, would probably be just a headphone amp and output in parallel with one of the four output busses. Probably a good idea as cueing is a very useful application.

  • Buttons are divided on purpose: I want to keep the affordances of “controls the mix” and “controls the mixer” independent. While making all the ancillary buttons the same and generic allows for flexible use in software… it makes for potential mistakes live. A nice big “S” button on the left makes S+grid a quick gesture. (I’m not sure about the handedness of this - perhaps they should be on the bottom under the grid?)

    Mind you - the buttons here are all soft - even the grid ones - so they can all be generically purposed as you like. Want to program some group mute mode? Sure X+preset buttons could be made to do that.

  • Knobs are intended to be actual knobs on potentiometers. I do love encoders, and if these were encoders that would allow access to this from the microcontroller… and the MIDI or OSC… But it feels like it is veering into another territory. My biggest concern here is parts and cost: Once the VCAs (or VCFs? crickets on that idea?) are under digital control - it now needs DACs for the control signals and I fear the circuit gets much more complex… But the increase in functionality isn’t lost on me… I just don’t know if it is viable staying within the concept.

  • Layout was staggered as the knobs don’t fit the 15mm pitch grid of the Neotrellis buttons - either on the PCB or on the fingers. I don’t like the staggered (works well for Circuit - but not perhaps here) - so still fiddling with ideas here.

As for parts: Maxim makes some really interesting audio chips: MAX4901~MAX4905 are expressly clickless audio switches. MAX9890 is for pop-less headphone outputs. MAX14662 is a 8x unit that switches analog paths that are beyond the rails of the chips power supply. There are also some digital potentiometer chips that look interesting.

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