Nah the 16a won’t do midi. (cries a little inside)

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@Justmat 's instagram had me revisiting Hainbach’s deerhorn video and…


(hopefully it starts at the right place — towards the end @ 16:27)

just three antennaes… now THAT’s a stereo performance mixer lol : )

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@TomWhitwell I think this is pretty viable. I’ve been scoping out the idea of it being built around bela - for low latency interactions (thanks @micromegas - Bela trill). I think it would be great if all the ins and outs were there (maybe 8in 8 out), some touch sensors, and something for feedback (leds, screen?). Then you could program it by writing a PD patch.

That’s a cool idea… I wonder if there is a sound descriptors library (similar to ZSA) but for PD.

It reminds me a lot of Sound is the Interface - the ecosystemic approach is very inspirational. As is the idea of ‘composing interactions’.

But I really like the idea of a monome style de-coupling of controls on a mixer. Imagine having a trill sensor for each channel, but being able to map it to anything in a PD patch:

Not sure about visual feedback, but the arrangement could just be this:

Screenshot 2020-06-09 at 07.01.11

Four trill bars (track gestures) with two jack inputs above each

One trill square (mix gestures) with 8 outs above it

Or maybe some leds per channel or a screen?

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Yes, my dream matrix-mixer would be:
• controlling with OSC
• controlling crosspoints (level) without click
• setting crosspoints via monome grid
• In/ Out level via MIDI-controller
• storable presets
• switching presets clickless (adjustable fade time)
• eurorack-audio( cv and normal audio
• small formfactor

There is an hardware-box (LCS System Matrix 3, now Meyer Sound Dimitri)), which do all…but outdated and to big…

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1522249550IMG_0292

something like this?

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I believe that a pursuit from this worth chasing is one that is disruptive in it’s heart. I imagine a mixer design worth a Studies youtube series. In my mind it must speak, i2c, midi, or OSC, and will sacrifice common performance archetypes

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minimixerchain02vals
this is my imaginary rendition for a minimal mixer.
Features:

  • (8) mono channels with: line in, direct out (post fader), aux 1 & 2 sends, pan, fader, mute/alt
  • (2) stereo channels with: line in, aux 1 & 2 sends, balance, fader, mute/alt
  • (4) stereo buses: main, alt, aux1 & aux2
  • [60mm faders]
  • volume knobs per bus out: main, alt, aux1 & aux2
  • main mute
  • phones out
  • daisy chain several units

Another version without the stereo channels:

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Pretty much everything you mentioned, including daisy chaining. A few more bells and whistles (switchable Alt Inputs - which I think is a huge deal) but pretty much it. Not exactly minimal but not overly complicated and extremely flexible.

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But it does do OSC. Or you can use the browser based software with its WiFi hotspot, to get a control surface. It’s way more mixer/audio interface than I need, but wow, very capable.

yeah I agree

seems like ~ 4 possible devices may arise out of these discussions

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A more fleshed out iteration of my previous idea. Happy to take this out of this thread if the scope/direction of the conversation is already down a particular path…

EDIT: this thing will run ‘scrips’, not to be confused with ‘scripts’. :slight_smile:

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I really like this idea. To me, there are plenty of existing mixers which do their job just fine and it doesn’t make much sense to recreate something unless it’s for strict design/form purposes.

But what does everyone want a mixer for, and what do they want it do that existing mixers don’t already do?

bradfromraleigh, I really like your idea for a multi-input, 2 output mixer which runs “scrips” … seems like it would potentially do all sorts of fun panning, volume, matrix mixing, modulations!

If not in Eurorack form, maybe a standalone, MOTU interface sized, horizontal standing unit?

I think those are fairly accurate groupings.

for better or worse, I’ve been grouping these by interface, because the affordances each has (or doesn’t have) plays directly into how it would deal with audio.

there’s the normal mixer interface stuff (faders, knobs) which is some vague form of a minimal, small footprint mono or stereo mixer (with the nearness concept sitting in between those two options).

then there’s gestural interface stuff (joystick, fsr/capacitive strips, trill, etc.), which has kinda centered around gestural panning/levels, with a focus on quad channels stuff or other instances where there’s simply more room for those gestures to be meaningful.

not sure if expandable is the right way to think about the last, but they generally seem to be digital devices that are configurable but feature little to no interface beyond patching audio into and out of them (maybe calling them headless makes sense). they could run scripts themselves, interface with other devices (norns), or be designed to live within a eurorack system, or any manner of other things.

to me, these feel like hard splits. attempting to blend these directions into each other in any significant way will likely result in confusion (for both building and using the thing).

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Could something like this be built as firmware for existing modules using Multipass?

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None of the other Trilogy modules or Ansible have the internal framework, that I’m aware of, to attenuate audio - at least not 8 channels of it.

That was the initial concern with this design - it incorporates a lot of VCAs and DACs in a small footprint. There are a lot of chips to cram in. It would also most likely be more expensive than you’d think.

EDIT: you need 18 channels of VCAs - at $2-4 per channel, that’s $36-72 alone. You will need at least as many channels of DACs so figure about $150 just in audio components not including resistors, caps, etc. Whatever you use to control it will also add significantly - say another $10-20 depending (for the purposes of crowd-sourcing, maybe a Teensy?). Then panels, PCBs, headers, etc. This would easily be a $300+ module at retail.

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Agreed, very helpful groupings!

I see what you mean by suggesting that these are hard splits. But I’d draw the opposite lesson: precisely because fruitfully bridging two (or more) of these directions is non-obvious, successfully doing so would be that much more valuable, enough so to be worth a shot at this exploratory stage…

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Thoughts on whether this minimal footprint + midi control direction could/should include some metering capabilities?

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Ansible incorporates LEDs which I excluded from this mock-up. I think utilizing something similar would be ideal but would add significantly to the part count for the purposes of accurate metering (much different than how they are implemented in Ansible, I’m assuming). An alternative may be a separate DIY metering module that could operate off of any of the pin headers on the backside.

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heavily caveating the following as just my point of view…

I think bridging these concepts is very obvious, it’s just also very dangerous if you’re looking to build some even kind of purpose-built.

The K-Mix bridges 2.5 of these three categories and while I own one, I don’t like it at all. It doesn’t do the first section very well, it definitely wouldn’t satisfy someone who’s very into quad channel stuff, and because the interface is trying to split a bunch of different forms of interactions, it doesn’t do the routing things very well either.

I think connecting some kind of gestural controller to the 3rd category (headless audio thingy) could get you section two, but I would never feel good about hard-wiring an opinionated and polarizing control surface to a customizable and user-definable audio i/o box. the lack of an opinion on audio undercuts the inclusion of the interface and the interface undercuts the range of possibilities of the audio routing.

this doesn’t even get to addressing the cost and multidisciplinary effort required to make an everything device. if we not nailing the distinctions between these directions or some nuance therein we should talk about it, but I agree with the sentiment that people should refine each idea into the best concept representing it, because I truly don’t believe one device that does all three is going to be possible.

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i like how the design follows the same form factor as trilogy/ansible modules. another idea to consider is making a companion module that would only have inputs and 2 outputs and would be controlled via i2c from ansible/trilogy (running custom firmware) or teletype - this way you don’t have to worry about USB or other controls and you could probably fit more than 8 inputs in 4hp. or even 2 hp perhaps, nearness style, with 2 outputs and 7 inputs? not sure how feasible it is to fit the required circuitry in 2hp though…

btw you can do something similar already with the disting ex matrix mixer algorithm - 6 inputs, 4 outputs and controllable via i2c.

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