#305

That’s super really helpful breakdown of the pitfalls!

Cards on the table: the direction that speaks to me is an augmented simple stereo mixer under an ergonomic UI along the lines of what you were exploring. Where the augmentation enables unusual (+hopefully open-ended/customizable) ways to animate the mix through pre-defined and ergonomic UI interaction points (1-2 macro knobs (+ cv/midi) for the whole mixer (+ maybe 1 button per channel?)). So something like your span idea should be a viable configuration; but hopefully animation options in the directions that @TomWhitwell @_mark and others were suggesting should also be possible.

(From my admittedly biased perspective, the benefit of that direction would be that it holds onto the ergonomic + utility of the kind of design you were proposing, while focusing on open-ended mix animation capabilities w. ergonomic control as the unique selling point that addresses the question ‘why build another simple mixer in a saturated market?’)

#306

Yea - I’ve been thinking about that. You could breakout function per module and add inputs/outputs like the TXi and TXo - bussing them in to headers on the rear. I still like the idea of having a salient module that works without any extras with the entire monome lineup, straight out of the box.

Maybe the compromise is:

  • 1 8-channel input header
  • 1 8-channel output header
  • 1 stereo output header
  • 1 stereo input header

You could daisy chain at least one more of these (how many channels would someone really need in a single euro case) or add additional inputs or outputs at a marginal expense. You might be able to squeeze an additional pair of 8-channel i/o headers or stereo i/o headers but I think we are running out of real estate for a focused-ish module.

EDIT: next question is, are the expansion modules active or passive or a little of both?

For example: one could make a cheap input expansion module that is just a panel and some jacks with an 8-channel header output on the rear. All the VCAs are on the main module. This keeps expansion costs down and might lessen issues regarding modules speaking to each other, digitally.

The alternative is, of course, the expansion modules have their own VCAs, DACs and computer which communicates - driving the cost and complexity up for an expansion while keeping the main module relatively cheaper and obtainable.

3 Likes
#307

yes! this is exactly what I was proposing! if it’s going to be in euro it seems like just jacks is the way to go, nearness or txo style! didn’t know about the disting matrix mixer that is interesting and promising…

4 Likes
#308

I’ve resisted getting into this… I’ve always felt like none of the minimal mixers did what I wanted… and that it was likely that there wasn’t enough common interest in the kind of thing I wanted for someone to make it. This thread, which has lots of great ideas - only reinforces that there are many approaches to this object of desire.

That said, emboldend by my recent work in making hardware - I couldn’t resist any more… here’s my thought:

mixer idea
mixer idea812×586 13.6 KB

This is a compact, minimal, programmable, 8 to 4, all stereo pair, mixer.

  • 8 stereo in, on 3.5mm jacks
  • inputs have pre-matrix gain control
  • 4 stereo out, on 3.5mm jacks
  • output have post matrix gain control
  • matrix is on/off for each stereo pair to each output bus
  • matrix is under full control of embedded microprocessor
  • S & X buttons allow solo (per bus) and some other as yet unprogrammed function
  • four presets allow quick reconfiguration
  • USB connection for power, and connect to hosts for MIDI and/or OSC
  • processor pre-programmed with features above… but…
    …programmable in either Python or C++ (std. Arduino w/CircuitPython support)

I have done a very preliminary look at components to make this work, and it might fit in that size enclosoure - but I might be being a bit optomistic, but at most 180mm x 240mm…?

Two possible changes:

  • add MIDI in/though on 3.5mm type jacks
  • replace input gain with instead a LPF control - pretty much anything feeding this mixer is goign to have it’s own volume control. The LPF allows a more expressive cut off - if you just need to level something, use the device’s own volume control.
  • going the other way - eliminate the input knobs altogether - again pretty much any device feeding this will have an output volume knob.

Cost would be rather high… very rough guess is $200 bill of materials.

Also… Idea here is a pure analog mixer under digital control. Audio signals don’t go through DAC/ADC. This keeps cost down. It is open if the input &/or output controls are under digital control or not… My base thought, though is not.

37 Likes
#309

I really like this idea !

Question about the grid: Apart from the matrix routing what do you imagine for the 8x4 grid ? Would it be something like Monome grid buttons or two 4x4 Neotrellis squares with LEDs maybe ? In that case perhaps they could serve as a basic vu-meter ? Or just simple buttons without light ? I guess it will be also be used for muting and soloing with a combination of keys/pads.

I guess this closes the door to the Adat output I wished (it seems I’m the only person wishing that kind of old school but useful digital I/O haha) but that’s not a big deal, if this reduces the cost, that’s better : )

Is there an headphone output ? :slight_smile:

1 Like
#310

I like the idea too.

The preset buttons are the four to the top right? If it’s to be programmable, what about having six of those buttons instead, removing the S & X buttons, and make them user-assignable function/macro buttons? Among those functions could be soloing or group muting or full presets or trigger randomization or trigger fade between output channels, etc.

I assume the knobs would be encoders and not pots? Is the offset layout preferred over just a row of 8? Looking at the size, not much bigger than the Eventide Timefactor layout, which is okay for programming a pedal, but I think might be jumbly as a mixer. Plus, when using the Timefactor, I definitely think of them as top row/bottom row rather than a single sequential row.

#311

What chip are you thinking of for this? Would be great to find a way to do noiseless switching

#312

Wow! Didn’t realize folks would like this that much!

I sized (and costed) the grid on the Neotrelis system: So 4x4 pad, a little squishy, with either Neopixels or just bicolor LEDs under each. I think the feedback is essential and worth the cost.

My guiding principle is to make the actual mixer have a simple analog mixing path:

  • VU metering via the grid LEDs wouldn’t be possible - as the microcontroller never sees the signal. I suppose few comparitors might give the CPU access to “signal” and “hot” indication… will have to think on that. Might be easier just to have a few bicolor LEDs with a fixed analog circuit to show “signal present” and “hot”.

  • ADAT or audio over Ethernet (Dante or AVB) all entail a much larger design and cost space. Also - frankly - over my head in ability to design!

  • Headphone out is an interesting idea… If so, keeping it simple, would probably be just a headphone amp and output in parallel with one of the four output busses. Probably a good idea as cueing is a very useful application.

  • Buttons are divided on purpose: I want to keep the affordances of “controls the mix” and “controls the mixer” independent. While making all the ancillary buttons the same and generic allows for flexible use in software… it makes for potential mistakes live. A nice big “S” button on the left makes S+grid a quick gesture. (I’m not sure about the handedness of this - perhaps they should be on the bottom under the grid?)

    Mind you - the buttons here are all soft - even the grid ones - so they can all be generically purposed as you like. Want to program some group mute mode? Sure X+preset buttons could be made to do that.

  • Knobs are intended to be actual knobs on potentiometers. I do love encoders, and if these were encoders that would allow access to this from the microcontroller… and the MIDI or OSC… But it feels like it is veering into another territory. My biggest concern here is parts and cost: Once the VCAs (or VCFs? crickets on that idea?) are under digital control - it now needs DACs for the control signals and I fear the circuit gets much more complex… But the increase in functionality isn’t lost on me… I just don’t know if it is viable staying within the concept.

  • Layout was staggered as the knobs don’t fit the 15mm pitch grid of the Neotrellis buttons - either on the PCB or on the fingers. I don’t like the staggered (works well for Circuit - but not perhaps here) - so still fiddling with ideas here.

As for parts: Maxim makes some really interesting audio chips: MAX4901~MAX4905 are expressly clickless audio switches. MAX9890 is for pop-less headphone outputs. MAX14662 is a 8x unit that switches analog paths that are beyond the rails of the chips power supply. There are also some digital potentiometer chips that look interesting.

9 Likes
#313

I think the sorts of things I’d be mixing, and perhaps others, don’t actually have their own (easy) volume controls. One other thing I’d throw in the ring is: an easy mono/stereo switch for the ins/outs? There are adapters one could buy to do that work by hand, but if it’s not too hard it’d be great to have that available. Mics, guitars, etc. are almost all mono, and I’d expect those to be common sound sources

#314

Ah - I had been conceiving this as a line level mixer only. Supporting mics and guitars gets into issues of preamps and impedance, and then leads to phantom power or no, and HPF at 60Hz to cut rumble, and and and…

It is perhaps conceivable to give the input circuits enough gain to handle such things… but I admit that I feel on shaky ground doing so.

Mono / Stereo: switches are easy, but add to cost, and space, a perhaps to fiddliness. Another option - as has been suggested for many of the designs above - is to have some channels, say the first two - be mono - the rest stereo.

1 Like
#315

This is an interesting topic. So far we have seen the reinvention of mixers currently made by any big company from Behringer to SSL.

What if we were able to reinvent the mixer UI somewhat? I’m of an age where a mixer is a familiar format. Comfortable. You can look at the row of faders and see what the relative levels are (and you need a gain knob to get them in the same neighborhood. )

And pan— a knob makes sense. Swivel left, swivel right.

But what else could a mixer look like. A field of joysticks? A field of buttons? An orb that somehow translated our motions into a mix? A theremin type field effect? I don’t know. Trying to throw something out there.

I like mixers, I know how they work.

5 Likes
#316

I’m cheering for that too!

What about the MI Frames of standalone stereo mixers?

#317

Some great stuff in this thread! I’m really enjoying the throwing of ideas in the pot…

In that spirit, I just wanted to throw this is here:

This is a Max external, based on the Meyer Sound space Map by Zachary Seldness.

There is a great concept at the core of it - having a virtual mix space as a map, where multiple inputs can be assigned and cross-faded between multiple outputs that are abstracted from real space (elements of the frames style keying and metasurface here).

This is the demo to watch:

More here:

Obviously this is all focused on spatial audio, but this could easily be routing sounds to and from effects etc.

3 Likes
#318

a simple solution is having only stereo channels, with two TS jacks per input, with Left normalled to Right aka “if one wants mono, just patch into left”.

There are not much options for mixers with 8 stereo channels, and in a compact tabletop form factor, i know of none. I seem to remember that somewhere in the early discussions sparking this thread, a person was looking for a “even just a stereo Bastl Dude”.

5 Likes
#319

So stoked to see this many stereo channels !

1 Like
#320

Wouldn’t you need 32 of those switches - £64 just in switches?

#321

I like this idea @mzero! You could try to use an analog switch ic like the MT8816AE (8x16 matrix used in the SSSR Matrixarchate) or go for a MAX11300 to also have 12 bit adc/dacs? Not sure how noiseless tho.

#322

They make a lot of different parts… I’m currently eyeing:

  • MAX4571 or MAX4573 - 11 clickless SPST switches controllable via I2C or SPI - $6.50 in quanties. Need 6 so - $39
  • MAX14662 - 8 SPST switches via I2C or SPI - $3 in qty. Need 8 so $24 - but not clickless, so that needs some additional components (extra cap and res. I think?)
  • MAX5410 - 2 digital potentiometers with zero crossing detection and mute - $2 in qty… Need 32 so $64 - and could have volume control per matrix point

So yeah - as I said, BOM cost would be high. This device, even if made maker friendly, is going to be a bit spendy.

2 Likes
#323

I’d be down for this as you’ve specced. I like the MIDI on 3.5 (I have several MIDI sequencers that I prefer over computer) and love the LPF-instead-of-trim. One or two CV in and assigned via the X key would be sweet but I wouldn’t want to burden your design which is nice.

1 Like
#324

I don’t know if we’re getting anywhere but can I just say how wonderful and inspiring and just ACE this thread is? Thank you all for your insight and openness and sharing and imagination.

25 Likes