It can definitely be this thin - we just need to bend spacetime slightly in the middle to make things fit!

More seriously though, this looks like a lovely design - I particularly like the normalled mono-stereo channels, grid style mute/solo buttons, and 3 knobs per channel

The original post was for something that had the monome sense of industrial design, which is more specific than just being “minimal” or “small.” Though we’re all experts in loving the monome design style I thought I’d weigh in on some observations of the monome design language. Obviously, since @tehn and others who actually do that design are here, I’m offering this just as observation for consideration.

Some of the design philosophy, integrated with functionality, would separate this mixer design project from becoming a hardware nano Kontrol Studio dressed up in aluminum (which, for the record, I’d be a sucker for). In other words, if the design philosophy influenced the functionality as much as the other way around, we’d end up with something that was more unique and “monome” in spirit as well as looks.

Among my favorite quotes is one from Anaxagoras which is sometimes translated as “We think because we have hands.”

Some (outsider) observations on monome instrument/controller industrial design language:

  1. The blank object. While monome gear is often used for controlling, there is a distinct lack of any permanent surface indicators such as dial position or button label. This results in smooth metal surfaces and no distractions and no visible indications of what to do next. []The lack of surface markings allows some users to work more freely and the smooth surfaces encourage some to apply their own decals and indicators as they personalize the gear for their own uses. The blank object draws attention to the core elements that fingers will touch and alter. The only thing visible is the knob, the grid of buttons.
  2. The object illuminated. What indicators and markers exist in the monome instruments are provided with light: buttons that glow, LED segments in a ring, or screen of the Norns. This creates an interface that is adjustable, programmable, customizable, in a way the engraved or printed markers are not. []Indicators that are only present through illumination can be altered, animated, re-animated to suit the needs of the person using the instrument or tool.
  3. Hands-first design. The build of the monome instruments seems to be first a consideration of “What kind of hand movements do I want to employ?” rather than “What kind of specifically-defined functionality do I want?” For example, the simplest design brief one might write for a grid would be “I want to push buttons and alter the flow of music.” Similarly the simplest design brief for arc might be “I want to turn knobs and alter the flow of music.” []The desire statements begin with what it is that the user’s hands want to do. As objects, the specific hand-machine interaction is the only thing visible and the complete focus until the object is turned on. And even after being turned on the illuminated indicators are very tightly integrated to the touchable element.
  4. One interaction element, in multiples. monome instruments focus on one kind of interaction. In grids it’s pressing buttons. In arc it’s turning a knob. In both instruments there are multiples of the interaction elements and the implementation of software determines how or if the different interaction elements function. []But each one is an expression of a singular hand/machine interaction. In many ways this mirrors instrument design as practiced by humans since we’ve been human: a tube with many holes, a box with 4 strings, a collection of cylinders with skins stretched across them, a series of resonant plates in a row.
  5. Software defined functionality. Each of the monome instruments is completely defined by software. The instruments themselves, as noted above, are a gathering of one type of interaction element. []The interaction elements themselves may lend themselves to specific functions or kinds of interaction. The grid appears well suited to step sequencer or other on/off functions but we’ve all seen an array of other interesting things it can be. The arc might seem well suited to traditional volume or panning functions but is clearly far more flexible than that based on the code which illuminates it. []While the specific interaction element defines the scope of the kind of data/functionality that might be most obvious, the open-endedness of the instrument is revealed by having it entirely programmable and reprogrammable.
  6. Material. The monome instruments are tactile experiences. Aluminum, weighted, the rubber of the buttons on grid. There is a satisfaction in the feedback of the instrument through the fingers back to the mind. Illumination confirms motions, but the fingers know it before the light reaches our eyes.
  7. Portable. All of the monome instruments could be fit into one backpack with a computer or small sound generation device (such as Norns). This allows for their use in a wide variety of physical environments from corners and desks (as is documented in the tiny studio corner topic) to the woods or other outdoors locations to transitional places like trains and busses.

I think if we were to approach the idea of a mixer like monome we might want to start first with a design brief that was in spirit with what we know about existing monome objects. Something like:

“I want to [insert what my hands will be doing] and alter the flow of sound.”

In this case, since it’s sort of pre-meditated that we want to mix different streams of sound together and place them in a sound field, we might want to ask ourselves “what control element, in multiples, might have the data capability to do this and be enjoyable for my hands?”

The object that is built could be utilized as a mixer or whatever else someone comes up with. But the idea of mixing itself would change, just as the idea of step-sequencing changes when using a monome grid.

One potential approach, everyone should ideally think about their own for a bit first

Though someone earlier suggested jokingly that a bunch of joysticks was the way to go, the more I think about it, the more it might make sense. A collection of N joysticks (4? 8? 12? 24?) that control the flow of signals through the device. Joysticks can have the right amount of variable data to control sound levels and positioning in space. See @zoundsabar’s commentary above, based on his experience using several kinds of joystick-driven mixing devices.

Obviously design and materials research time would have to be spent on designing a truly satisfying joystick. Something small but feeling substantial. Perhaps with an additional small wheel or rotation element in/on/consisting-of the stick. If we were to reserve “square” for the grid and “round” for the arc perhaps the joystick would be set in an octagon or a triangle or a pentagon of light elements. Or maybe that’s too much.

If the design brief were “I want to tilt weighted rods and alter the flow of sound” we might end up with more of a “monome mixer” than the things we’re seeing in this thread currently. Though the things we’re seeing are also beautiful and look like very functional, very clearly defined mixers.

Think stirring/mixing.

I’d like to tag in @Jonathan_Riley because he’s thinking more about a joystick idea below.

17 Likes

Heck, if the mini jacks are used (kinda hope not), I’d gladly take more than 3-6 and hope we get up to 8 stereo channels. Would be sick to have stereo sends and returns too. Maybe just a button to insert a high pass filter per channel instead of a full eq per channel would be cool too. After all, we are designing a lot of the sounds from scratch and can all probably shape the sound before hitting the mixer. What do ppl think about having a headphone out? Should it be on the mixer or should folks have to plug in to an external headphone amp to keep this clean and not too cluttered? I think it’s important to keep mute/solo buttons in a place where knobs or faders wouldn’t block their access in a performance.
I love this thread and it’s great to read everyone’s ideas :slight_smile: I think it’s important to not recreate something that already exists and to fill the needs that a lot of us have but can’t find out in the wild yet. Keep the ideas coming :slight_smile:

all the mock-ups shared so far have been amazing but this is closest to some things i planned to suggest…things i like:

  • i’m willing to accept 3.5mm jacks
  • reducing to a single send is another great idea (for me) but seems like a deal breaker for others…i think if we’re talkin “minimal” two sends feels like a bonus feature
  • tilt EQ is good enough for me
  • also love the full length led VU dividing channel/global controls!

suggestions:

  • make it deeper, i think the 0-coast and 0-ctrl from MN are good examples of reasonable height for flat instruments like this one
  • speaking of which…keep it flat
  • replace return vol with nearness pan mentioned above by @bmoren

also i’d love to see a 4ch mono version of this…

  • trim the left two columns of knobs
  • eliminate one VU column
  • eliminate all paired jacks
  • eliminate paired buttons
  • remaining buttons could be programmed to recieve gesture for both mute and solo (short press = mute, long = solo)
8 Likes

one thing is blatantly obvious - theres a large market just trying to find the “one” and here we are trying to find a better solution. Im so for this, and have bunch id ideas :slight_smile:

The first thing is the case I think - ive seen this over and over again - the case ends up being the majority of the cost the project (depending on funky transformers or tubes ect)

So my idea is to junk the idea of a community case entirely, just have the same dimensions we need o work off and build our own - there are so many benefits to doing this/

Theres a well known project called “harrsirson for filters” an they’re he 12b hi/lo cut filters from the Harrison 900 series (Dan Kennedy uses em on his eq so there an endorsement) its a super easy circuit and negate the need for a per Chanel eq

Use THAT 1646 drivers on the Chanels as they’re CMRR is like a trafo and much cheaper obviously
and a tan function circuit on all inputs.

!00% transfomers on the outs - ed Anderson makes great transformers for 20 to 30 a pop and I know a guy or does his own transformers and im sure he’d do some but they’re very $$$ and not sure how long eta would be so probably not a good idea but the option would be there

Tan function on inputs/outputs

Theres more like Wayne Kirkwood’s genius m/s circuit

4 Likes

any thoughts on whether the rubber base of the old greyscale instruments would help reduce cost for enclosures?

is that a horrible idea for a mixer?

2 Likes

I guess another part of the design language appears to be:

  1. Build to concept. Open source for price. Many devices are built to a specification “Must have N channels and Q outputs and …” while others are built to a price “This is going to compete in the $800 interface market.” The stuff built by monome doesn’t appear to do this. There is no “four knob controller market.” And the materials used appear to be quite good. []While I’m sure price is a consideration of the gear produced by monome, it is clearly not built to a price. The arc is $225 per knob. The grid could be considered a $700 computer keyboard. While I don’t have access to the CoGS spreadsheet, I’m certain that a fair amount of that cost is absorbed in the quality of materials with a very reasonable amount remaining for profit so that the enterprise can continue. []In order to satisfy the desire to be inclusive, monome provides details for how a person can build their own in whatever housing and material they can afford. In this way people can gain access to the community of practice surrounding this gear if they have access to the knowledge to build their own.
2 Likes

I think one distinction in terms of BOM, sourcing, mechanical design etc. balancing cost vs quality. Is this meant to be an accessible mixer? or a high quality one? I don’t think we can have it both ways there. Transformers would increase the price considerably, and introduce constraints like increasing the sise, and efficacy of a laser cut design due to weight. But would be much higher quality than opamps or digital amplifiers

3 Likes
Another potential solution entirely

How about an aluminum block with 48 mini jacks or alternately 2 or 4 DB25 ports? This block connects to Norns via USB and, using Norns/scripting etc all of the ports can be addressed. Then you can use a grid or arc or Korg nanoKontrol Studio or 16 or collection of modular knobs feeding in through Crow etc and have the mixer of one’s dreams.

The design brief might be:

“I want to do nothing with my hands and bring many sound sources under the control of my Norns.”

Addendum

Maybe there’s a single switch that turns it into a tiny/giant passive summing mixer in one position and in a downloaded pre-defined way ala Crow in the other, and in receive via USB/Norns in the third position.

7 Likes

I think we’ll be in the minority here but I absolutely love this idea. I brought up in another thread somewhere, if there are mixers without sliders, pots etc. that exist. Midifighter, 16n, nanoKontrol are readily availble, not to mention the community designed Teensy interfaces already here.

As an alternative to keep it self contained, an OLED screen and single encoder could be included, like norns, o_c, er-301 etc. for controlling levels internally without a midi controller.

This design concept would reduce weight, cost, size. And more fully integrate into the Norns eco-system. I also love @TomWhitwell’s suggestion of integrating i2c somehow as well.

5 Likes

If you skip the need for a screen and encoder etc and go with DB25 ports you keep the entire operation as accessible as possible. The entirety of the spend would be on the aluminum brick and part that acts as the brain (which would essentially be Crow x however many ports you want). Keep it that slimmed down and then the cost is minimal and it becomes an obvious expansion for anyone with Crow/Norns or happens to be in the market for an analog summing device.

Then you’ve designed for accessibility and can still afford to maintain the monome industrial design language.

2 Likes

Are you envisioning a complimentary eurorack module with a DB25 port, i2c connector, stereo output?

edit Or I guess if it’s Crow hardware interface could be mirrored in the aluminum block itself, just some input, output jacks and a usb port built right into the thing. Control it remotely using maiden, or more granularly with Norns. Like a standalone Crow with a ton of i/o

2 Likes

just as an experiment, here’s a brief survey covering some of the questions raised here.

it largely ignores these more open designs that would require some other monome product to work. not a value judgement on those, but that feels like a hard split in terms of design intent.

6 Likes

Could work in both form factors I suppose. The sort of napkin sketch would be:

Modular: Take 8 crows (at 6 jacks each that gives you 48 jacks). Give them a single faceplate. Save money by having only 1 USB port. Save money by having a shared PCB. Save money by eliminating all the jacks and replacing with DB25.

Standalone: Take the thing above, stuff it in an aluminum brick, add the switch for operation mode (passive summer, stored memory ala Crow, active USB control via Norns/something else). Maybe some tiny signal lights so we have some kind of illumination in it.

Just seeing you edit and write above haha. Yes! :slight_smile:

The challenge isn’t the mixing interface–there are so many of them already. It’s the I/O. So why not just give us the I/O in a monome industrial design and take it from there. :slight_smile:

3 Likes

I def don’t take it as a value judgement and understand it’s a left turn. But I do note that the OP specs began with:

I wanted to note that this is more than aluminum and small and that the project would benefit from considering that part of the design brief deeply.

2 Likes

I think @TomWhitwell is right about the $120 price point, and I don’t think any of the designs proposed would be able to meet that. If there was a bastl dude-like mixer that had a couple switches for switching between dual mono and stereo per channel, it seems like that would satisfy a lot of the demand for a minimal stereo mixer… once you start adding EQ, aux sends, etc it seems harder and harder to compete with a mackie on price and quality.

But the minimalist monome design is not the same as a minimal mixer… For example the conversation @dianus and @Gahlord are having seems much more novel, but certainly not minimal… This does strike me as more on brief though…

5 Likes

the only thing I am having difficulty envisioning is how ergonomically that many jacks could work. Would they face upwards? or mounted on the sides? It’s kind of like the whole how would dogs wear pants argument

8 Likes

The $120 price point could only be met with the kind of volume that someone like monoprice can bring to bear. Bastl Dude, built in Czech Republic in a novel piece-work fashion costs $100. The aluminum housing will be the extra $20. So an aluminum dude is probably the extent of it if trying to build in the traditional corporate function/price-point way.

I think the stuff @dianus and I talking about is minimal though. :slight_smile: One controller type is minimal or one core usage pattern (I/O) is minimal. Certainly more minimal than any of the other ideas floating around in here with multiple controller types and mixed functions with some knobs doing volume and other knobs doing panning etc. :slight_smile:

3 Likes

If I understand it correctly, it’s minimalist sure. But anything that you can hook up to a computer and program through maiden or whatever i would not describe as minimal. Crow is not minimal, norns is not minimal etc etc although they’re minimalist—that’s the distinction I was drawing :stuck_out_tongue: but wont belabor the point, if people disagree with my definition that’s fine : )

6 Likes

Thank you for making this survey.

I was about to reflect on how many different ideals there are floating around in this thread. I’m guessing there will be 2-3 core designs that may require separate conversations (with the potential of cross pollinating of ideas of course).

1 Like