sound art is a necessary label when musicians insist that music needs notes, harmony, etc… and when radio workers think that voice is a necessary presence on that medium.

also i’m not sure i like that label but at the same time i’m not sure that i share the same concerns that musicians have.

defining is fun but it won’t end at sound, time or anything

i don’t know what sound is, really. even on a purely empirical / mechanical level. we can’t perceive pressure / voltage gradients directly. we have some ways of characterizing pressure patterns. nothing as simple as the helmholtz model, as it transpires. currently, we think the image of a vowel in the (healthy, ideal) cochlea is something like this:

in other words, the cochlea is acting as a bank of asymmetric (gammatone) resonators - responding to a sort of higher-order moment of frequency- more like a probability density than anything. and that’s way before it gets to the auditory nerve, let alone the brain.


i think there’s space for music that is just a memory, outside of time. in one of my favorite poems, orpheus could heal nothing by this music and i think it is that kind of music, a (cruel) memory of music.

(when you think of a piece of music (without actually, say, rehearsing it in your head,) don’t you kind of experience it “all at once?” as a specter that haunts your thoughts? i do.)

pop/remix music is all about memory (sometimes), when 100ms of a recording can summon an entire constellation of trained experience. doesn’t even need to be a recording of the “song”, but maybe a certain intake of breath between verses.

ironically, i think varese + artaud were going somewhere like that in their opera about celestial telegraphy - grappling with relativity theory and the breakdown of certain assumptions about time. (and i can imagine being pretty fed up with artaud’s BS by the end of that project, ha)

in 1958 morton feldman wrote an article about boulez and varese, in the second issue of the journal It Is:

“[noise] bores like granite into granite… it is only noise which we secretly want, because the greatest truth usually lies behind the greatest resistance.” and: “[t]hose moments when one loses control, and sound like crystals forms its own planes, and with a thrust, there is no sound, no tone, no sentiment, nothing left but the significance of our first breath - such is the music of varese. he alone has given us this elegance, this physical reality, this impression that the music is writing about mankind rather than being composed.”


and alas, there is so much other baggage tied up in even very traditional definitions:

18 Likes

I’ve been thinking about this in terms of like, algorithmic/generated music recently.

I consider “generative” techniques like self-playing modular synth patches to be music composition tools to create musical compositions. I’ve been thinking if there is a point at which the approach becomes a non-musical one? For example, would a system (thinking fully-computerized here) that is set up to generate multiple pieces, listening habits on those pieces are statistically modeled, and changes to future pieces are made to try to improve on some of those listening stats be creating “music” (i.e. machine learning-type stuff, mentioned in the streaming responsibility thread)?

There are definite differences in “process” between the two. For example, modular synth patches are “artisanal” (in the sense that they are hand-crafted), whereas writing some code to spit out finished pieces is not at the more micro-interaction level…though, I’d argue that the process could be employed and “released” in an “artistic” context, like a museum installation or something.

Another thing I’ve noticed is that people have really negative reactions to these kinds of things, and I wonder if that’s a reaction to the applications of the process (because they can and are usually employed in ways where the inner-workings are opaque and for capitalistic reasons, which I can definitely understand and tend to personally agree with) or the process itself (which, if I’m being honest, I’m kind of excited by it, because it’s sort of “pioneering” something new).

3 Likes

my fav definition of music comes from sean of autechre:

music = speech - text

at least roughly - i reckon it’s a kind of super-developed version of the pitch and intonation parts of speech (the aural bit that doesn’t contain textual info)

that + socio-historical context/discourse/embodiment i would say

12 Likes

this also a very important point imo

francois bonnet’s the order of sounds book expands on this a lot and is v relevant re the “definition” of sound in general

5 Likes

Actually, I don’t believe in this project [the reasons I discuss below are heavily influenced by Ornette Coleman as well as the “non-philosophical” thinking of Francois Laruelle, at least to the limited extent I can understand the latter… but it has been helpful for me thus far]

I see all of these definitional/theoretical elements as flowing from the music itself and therefore indistinct from it.

To interpret these elements as what music “is”, in other words to grasp music according to some absolute claim to sufficiency over music, becomes self-defeating.

No matter which definition, there’s an invariant structure built around a distinction with definitional elements on one side, music on the other, and an enveloping relation in which definition/music become co-constituting and by which the definition claims sufficiency over all music. However, sufficiency (and thus attempt at definition) fails because it denies or is otherwise unable to grasp the fundamental indistinction of definitional elements from what they take as their objects. We can replace this definition with another one that grasps the previous indistinction, but not without introducing a further split.

In fact, the most “evolved” or liberal definitions such as “music is organized sound” are actually the most stifling because then one is forced to think of every possible sound as music. The problem here is not Cage himself but the way Cage has been assimilated back into the definitional structures so favored by musicologists.

Definitional elements, in other words, ultimately are determined by music, just as the other elements they take as object (rhythms, melodies, scores, sounds, performances, instruments, musicians, gestures, tools, code). But it’s strictly a one-way street. These elements cannot determine music, no matter how badly they want to.

So what is the musician to do? In the end we cannot “know” music, not in the sense of this technological thinking where we first determine what music “is” and then act upon it. It’s not the truth of an exact science: we can’t command music to use or force it to appear according to some preconceived idea.

We can at best open ourselves to music, recognize what is already forming within music, and assist it… Insofar as this involves thinking these are never thoughts “of” or “about” music, but “within” or “according to” music and its gifts. It is neither agency nor fate but destiny; we realize our freedom only in being able to follow it and give of ourselves accordingly.

This does not mean abandoning definitional/theoretical elements. They are often inspiring. It means rather, divesting them of their definitional structures and their absolute claims to explain all music. It means treating them as musical material not as “theses” about musical materials. It means becoming aware of them according to inspiration, then habituating them, taking them into one’s body or embedding them into the interface as code. The less thought-“of” perhaps the better. In other words, folding definitional elements back somehow into the unknowable, ungraspable immanent reality that is music and musical practice.

Music thus takes on a posture closer to science fiction or role-playing, in which the invention or free combination of definitional elements builds “worlds” structuring all other elements in which a performance, recording, or some other actualization takes place. One may combine electronic timbres, tonality, serialism, polyrhythms without worrying about whether this is “musical” or not, or invent new practices/ideas not yet interpretable under any prior musical basis.

This isn’t a matter of a preconceived idea or “agency”, it’s not at all “do what you want”. If this world is being built according to the act already taking place within music, then it is already an act within music, and hence musical.

Music thus determines, or issues forth, musi-fictions which take definitional elements as their basic material.

For me, a major figure is Ornette Coleman. Harmolodic practices such as “everybody solos, nobody solos”, or the idea that every instrument play in its own natural key, enact a radical heterogeneity, a true democracy of thought which define a non-hierarchical relationship between individual and community. These are not elements of theory, but initiatory practices. They do not even in themselves constitute harmolodics.

Properly considered, harmolodics is a musi-fiction that fundamentally enacts another way of being, a utopia perhaps. Harmolodics can be practiced, but perhaps never quite formulated… certainly never assimilated or reduced into a definitional structure, and attempts to do so make a complete nonsense of it, including most of the writing about it. But it represents a true liberation, in contrast to these stifling ideas such as “everything can be music” (meaning: everything, every sound, is now subject to our specific definitional structure of music… you must attend to this structure, rather than open yourself to the music actually taking place.)

What musi-fiction is NOT, is any kind of innovation or advance. It is not a matter of taking a pair of (inadequate) definitional elements, calling one thesis, the other antithesis, and taking them up into a dialectic that evolves through Bach, Wagner, Schoenberg, Cage, (completely negating any contributions from non-Western sources) etc. until history reaches an end and everything is taken up under its structure, i.e. “everything is music”. Until we are blocked from responding to certain elements because we consider them obsolete. We’re already there anyway, history in this sense (of linear progress) is already at an end.

Perhaps we can finally give up on innovation?

This is not dialectics, but heresy, and may well be treated as such.

But it is increasingly our only chance to build a utopia, to fundamentally change our way of thinking and being (and this goes way beyond music).

15 Likes

I don’t imagine that was easy to write! Very thought-provoking.

One definition of definition is: a proposition…

There seems to me as if there are two meanings that one can refer to when it comes to the meaning of a word.

  1. What concept a word represents when used in language
    (regardless if that concept is vague, stupid, silly, naive or contradictory)

  2. A deeper, philosophical/scientifical meaning

When taking that second step, you quickly get to a depth that is not contained by the representation of the word, in regular communication. The question is, how deep can we go before it becomes so esoteric that we leave commonly used language? Yet, we have to allow some kind of insight from expertise.

If defining music falls back to defining sound, I think the first thing I would do is simply to point at a definition of it, and try to leave it at that to begin with.

sound

1. vibrations that travel through the air or another medium and can be heard when they reach a person’s or animal’s ear.

2. sound produced by continuous and regular vibrations, as opposed to noise.

Perhaps the concept time+attention is more like the possibility of sound, rather than an actual representation of sound? I can kind of see what you are saying, but if I take a more generic situation, I would be hard pressed to believe that many would use the word sound to represent the concept attention+time.

A problem is how distinct the reality of the subject is in the real world. If it is a scientific concept, such as a material with a certain atomic structure, it can be easier to draw distinct lines.
But if it is a cultural or philosophical subject it is more difficult, since it leans heavier towards how we are consciously and intellectually composed, and to the context where the subject exist.

I like this one, but it quickly becomes problematic. For an example, sirens are organized sounds, and they are not music if you look at what word represents them.

The word music does indeed mean something. If you take two sentences:

  1. I woke up, because I heard music
  2. I woke up, because I heard something

They communicate different things, and the difference lays in what is contained in the representation of the word music. The only question is how close we can get to a distinct definition.

In terms of a philosophical/scientifical excursion of discernment, we can probably go very deep, but perhaps we can not ask too much of the meaning of words, in the sense of what they mean to the group of language users (such as English speakers)?

1 Like

stravinsky sez:

I shall take the most banal example: that of the pleasure we experience on hear- ing the murmur of the breeze in the trees, the rippling of a brook, the song of a bird. All this pleases us, diverts us, delights us. We may even say: “What lovely music!” Naturally, we are speaking only in terms of comparison. But then, comparison is not reason. These natural sounds suggest music to us, but are not yet themselves music. If we take pleasure in these sounds by imagining that on being exposed to them we be- come musicians and even, momentarily, creative musicians, we must admit that we are fooling ourselves. They are promises of music; it takes a human being to keep them: a human being who is sensitive to na- ture’s many voices, of course, but who in addition feels the need of putting them in order and who is gifted for that task with a very special aptitude. In his hands all that I have considered as not being music will become music. From this I conclude that tonal elements become music only by virtue of their being organized, and that such organization presupposes a conscious human act.

so… that’s cool. it’s not nearly adequate for me but definitely represents a powerful convention.

once, i thought “sound = pressure gradient” was enough, and now i don’t. even mechanically. it’s evident that sounds are actually hallucinations.

i’m asking these questions pragmatically, not philosophically. not “what if” or “what about” but, “what the f is going on”

6 Likes

I don’t believe our culture can survive any real questioning

Not sure if it’s from Derrida : music does not imply belief

Mabye an apparition? A wraith? It’s weird to compare hallucinations

1 Like

I don’t think music needs sound, but I think it probably needs memory and maybe also angst

Yes. Wonderful thought.

1 Like

Perception is indeed a complex field, and the mechanisms of auditory perception are (if i’m up to date) not entirely explained; and the amount of knowledge about hearing is already massive. I see it as a tactile sense.

My intuition also leans towards music as a function of attention (be it towards an external phenomenon or directed upon an internal flux (a memory from the future? Berio)) over time.

I also tend to think of it as a mixture of social and intimate construct, and the skill of the composer being to reinforce/navigate/shatter/… the porous frontier between those. And bend/fold/redefine time.

5 Likes

(in quoting Starvinsky)

It depends on what we mean by “are”. In terms of the meaning of a word, it does not necessarily go down to the actual depth of the essence of reality, but might rather reflect some vague social or cultural construct. It makes it more based on necessity and simplicity (since language tends to be a super low resolution of what it represents) than an actual fine grained discernment of reality.
We can ask the question “what is music?” or we can ask “what concept does the word music represent, when it is used in the English language?” and we might get different answers.

In terms of looking at what the word represents, there is probably a spectrum of meaning. If we ignore interpretations that are individual, confused or misinformed, take something most every English speaker would recognize as music, perhaps something like Yesterday, by the Beatles.
At the end of the spectrum, you might find something rather obscure, that perhaps only a small number of people understand as music, say an arrangement of pluses and minuses as an example. Add to that everything in between.
You could say that group A (that recognizes Yesterday, but no further) has the correct interpretation, because of argument B, or that group Z (that recognizes + -), has the correct interpretation, because of argument C. But if our wish is to write the driest, most objective report of the representation of the word music, it spans from interpretation A(where everybody understands) to interpretation Z (that only a select few understands), regardless of how we feel about it as individuals. To give the most truthful report of what concept the word music represents, would be to describe this spectrum and its flexibility.

1 Like

That Stranvinsky quote raises many questions:

If a bird singing its song is not music, how about a human singing a bird’s sing? A bird singing a song taught to it by a human?

If, as a listener, I hear something behind a curtain and cannot tell if it’s a human or a bird, is it music or not? Or is it simultaneously music and not music, like some sort of musical quantum superposition that will collapse once the curtain is pushed aside?

If I sample a rippling brook, and play it back as is, is that music? (probably not) If I play with the pitch of the sample and make melodies, is it music then? If so, how much manipulation does it require to pass from being not music to music?

If I play a single note of an instrument, is that music? A single blast of a car horn? How about a bunch of people honking their horns at each other in a traffic jam?

Is a police siren music? If not, if I add a 909 kick drum underneath, does that make it music?

In other words, is EDM music?

Not sure Stravinski would think so.

5 Likes

= music (+ 20 characters)

1 Like

beautifully said and thought provoking

so then we come back to the experience of listening (rather than hearing), which is a fascinating subject in my opinion. can we differentiate listening to music from listening to other forms of sound? can we hear music in the sound of a waterfall?
and where are our bodies in all this conceptualisations/ definitions? we need bodies to be able to listen. we need bodies to be able to produce disturbances of air pressure.

I think this is a really great point. To push it a bit further, I would then ask, what is the factor that makes an identical sound be classified as music in one case and not in another?