Democracy


#565

That’s the whole point about what’s different this time around. Nobody has control of the propaganda apparatus. This leaves it open to foreign powers (or really, literally anybody with enough time and patience.)


#566

I simply don’t agree with this. Did someone, perhaps as part of a false flag operation, take out some ads on Facebook? It seems so, yes. But this is penny ante and far more easily tracked (as we have since found) than, say, Chinese campaign contributions in the 1996 election, back channel deals between Reagan’s campaign and Iran (hostage release timing), etc etc that we’ve seen in the past.


#567

A phrase I’d love to see struck from the public discourse. FUD. Discourse forum software says I’m replying to one person too much, so I’ll take a break now.


#568

Kind of weird to phrase outrage about immigration reform as a momentary distraction that nobody cares about! Immigration reform has been a topic of national conversation for at least twenty years :slightly_smiling_face:


#570

There’s probably a kinder way to phrase that.


#571

Read upthread for where I’m coming from on the immigration issue. I’ve been there and seen it personally for decades.

Same goes when I showed up for Occupy, BLM, and other things more recently. Feel free to apologize.


#572

People are perfectly ready to believe the Russians are engaging in false flag campaigns on Twitter & elsewhere, of course. :roll_eyes:


#574

“bootlicker” :smiley:

As total mis-assessments of character go, I have to quote Richard Feynman: “So bad, it’s not even wrong.”


#575

…anyway, speaking of things that have a long and storied history, isn’t “the Russians” such a funny little phrase?


#576

Like “zee Ghermans” in “Snatch”. :rofl:


#577

ahahaha mostly it puts me in mind of (a) some random smattering of Russian people going about their lives, maybe grocery shopping or something and (b) the sentiment behind WW2’s “the Japs” and trying to harmonize the two is… well I was gonna write “funny” but maybe not actually funny.


#578

No one cares about immigrants as human beings, I said. :slight_smile:


#579

Oh… well. I really don’t know what to do with that assertion. What on earth do you mean by it?


#580

It’s just false. Stop it?


#581

Okay, so if on the off-chance we’re talking about something like what Mark Fisher called The Big Other, I think actually, it is not true that The Big Other in the US doesn’t care about immigrants as human beings. For example, growing up I heard time and time again about how “America is a nation of immigrants,” we talked about how awful Ellis Island was in school, and how unjust it was that Japanese immigrants were put in camps during World War II for no crime other than their nationality.

Certainly, fears about “illegal aliens” have risen since 9/11, building on existing fear and hate, but I think it goes to far even to claim that the “structure” or “Big Other” doesn’t care about immigrants, much less what actual people themselves think.


#582

#583

“No one” should not be taken literally since I obviously care a hell of a lot and so do a few others here.

But we are, in the national sense, a rounding error so it’s safe to say “no one cares” insofar as politicians need to worry about public opinion.


#584

If it’s true, it’s imperative to change the fact. (I doubt it’s true.)


#585

just a friendly reminder.

please keep these conversations civil and empathetic.

one method i generally suggest— allow at least a few hours between responses, maybe longer. if you’re doing a one-line response to another one-liner, perhaps you’ve funneled into what’s more of a side discussion than a public conversation.


the world is pretty ugly right now. let’s treat each other well.


#586

I really don’t mean to jump into whatever this discussion is, because frankly I am still lost, but to say that those of us who care about this current immigration situation are a “rounding error,” is both wildly inaccurate and unnecessarily cynical in my opinion. Polling on this issue and on support/lack of support of the current administration is a constant reminder that a healthy majority of the US does not align themselves with this president’s ideology, and I’m sure that majority is even greater in terms of the particular issue of separating children from their families.

I’m not trying to make enemies, I’m not looking to have an argument with anyone, but man, the current situation at the border has just made me sick. I’m truly shocked and stunned at how America was not long ago so well regarded internationally and progressive and elected a black president, to whatever this is now, where we are separating children from their families FOREVER simply because of the color of their skin, and for political leverage.

If, given ALL the events of the past year, and ESPECIALLY the events of the last few days, voters in November STILL don’t turn out enough to elect a democratic majority to at least the House, I’m not sure quite what to do or what to believe anymore.