My home is in California. We’ve planted hundreds of trees and take care of 20 animals. I’ll fight and die for our country before I leave.


I literally can’t afford to leave for at least two years, and even after that, it would be pretty tough. :slight_smile:

I also … I dunno, I don’t wanna come across as flippant with regard to the evil that is every day happening at the hands of people who claim to speak for me, but, like… surely voting with my feet in this way does even less than voting with my ballot.

No, let me be a little more frank: I strenuously object to the idea that there exists on this earth a place for me to live that is unequivocally more morally right than the US. Certainly we are seeing a lot of ugliness lately, but I think (1) less of it is new than we’re comfortable admitting and (2) a lot of it seems endemic to, like, the way money and power work today, more than any flag or brand name.


I agree with both of you. That this is an extension of the status quo, but that it is starting to turn a frightening corner, and that there is nowhere on earth to hide.


I’m pretty sure there is nowhere / nowhen to hide. Leaving the planet (physically) doesn’t seem like an option either.


I hear what you’re all saying… but at a certain point isn’t the thing you believe it should/can be basically gone? And is there a point at which it would be impossible to be part of it, because it has gone far beyond exposing evils that have been happening for centuries?

I mean… I know lots of Russians living in Toronto that came here and left everything specifically to escape the regime in the USSR. It does do something. Same with Germans that left in the 30’s to escape what was happening.

And even though all countries are fucked up and our whole system is nasty, there are definitely places that have a higher moral and ethical standard than the USA, especially in the way that things are moving. None are perfect.

I guess I can easily imagine things happening that would make me want to leave, and there are already things happening that have prevented me from moving there recently.

And I appreciate you sentiment, @jasonw22… I can’t imagine fighting/dieing for that myself…


Yes, I agree that it can be difficult to comprehend putting roots in a specific place as deeply as my wife and I have done. It’s not typical for contemporary people, and especially not for Americans.

And I do have very strong feelings about the potential for democracy, and even American democracy that might approach something one could call patriotic. But it’s not the patriotism of Fox News, and it’s not something easy to explain. It’s more akin to the reasons people from all over the world showed up in Spain to fight and die in their resistance to Marco. Even though many such people were not themselves Spaniards.


probably a bad time for me to wade back into the thread
i’ll try to be as inoffensive as possible (apologies if i fail and manage to rub someone the wrong way)

that thought has never occurred to me
i hope to live overseas someday but would never leave specifically because of govt activity or policy that affects me negatively

don’t get me wrong…many actions of the current administration are reprehensible, shocking, beyond heartbreaking . i cannot condone them and don’t want my next statement to seem like a false equivalency…but

there have always been actions and standards of the government i live under that are diametrically opposed to my own principles and beliefs . i expect it . i am aware that the same is true elsewhere (in other countries)

for clarity, i don’t judge others for choosing that course of action
it just wouldn’t make sense for me and my family


im an Australian so have no “dog in the game” so to speak - but that press conference on its own is treason isnt it? I literally could not believe what i was seeing and then it suddenly all made sense…
PREDICTION - Trump will claim "polictical " asylum in Russia in the next 2 -4 years. He was just working out the deets in person


I’m with you on this. I also firmly believe in the power of democracy. I also believe it needs to be actively defended and nurtured, or can quickly devolve into populism and dictatorship. Democracy is fragile, even when working well and with strong institutions.


By the way it was Franco, not Marco :wink:


Typos happen when passionate responses to threats to Democracy happen in the middle of the work day.


Maybe the right question would be “Is there a point at which it would be possible to not be part of it?”

And if we must accept that merely living in the US makes me part of it (must we?), then maybe the answer is just no.

I think I must have some fundamental distaste for thinking on this scale though, so I’ll let you all carry on :sweat_smile:.


Democracy isn’t feeling good these days,
in the western democratic countries the quality of information is very low,
and politicians prefer to follow the worst pulses of people for having consent.

Bad informed people and populism are a dangerous cocktail.


I’ve been checking in with this tool a lot more lately:

It helps me focus on what I can / am looking forward to or at least a pointer in the direction that looks like real progress without the puffery or rampant hatred that is so popular again today. It is also based on ideas (realities) that have not worked for very long across the globe historically. It might be a decent starting point for a person though who feels as though impending doom here will be forever. Nothing is forever so far.


Nothing lasts forever, but it can have irrevocable and devastating effects, especially for some people.


Yes this is certainly true.

  • America is definitely the Evil Empire at this point. I have no doubts about that, no confidence at all in our current government, and serious doubts about the strengths and weaknesses of our system as a whole.
  • There is no escape. Bad decisions by the US government unfortunately have major effects on the whole world.
  • The combination of toxic nationalism, kleptocracy, incompetence, and sociopathy often called “Trumpism” is unfortunately not unique or new in the world.
  • American evil is not really new either. It started with the Conquistadors. Things are generally better here today than they were in 1520 or 1860 or even 1980. The evil is bolder now than it has been in the last couple of decades, in some ways, but not as strong and not as socially acceptable.
  • If I stay here and vote and wield the (very small) amount of influence I have, I can contribute toward positive change. If I leave, I can’t.
  • Trump is doing a lot of damage, but he is temporary. I expect to outlive his presidency and the man himself, and see better days.
  • For most people, life in the US could certainly be better and probably would be better elsewhere – but the hardship level is well below what makes people flee their home countries. I have no particular attachment to my home country, state or city but I do have extended family, a decent job, a house we got a good deal on, pets, etc. that make the idea of moving extremely unattractive even while I envy people in Finland or the Netherlands.
  • Is the rest of the world really ready to welcome 200 million American refugees, and just leave the country to the Trump supporters? I think we’d all much rather kick this one guy off his cheap gold-plated throne.


It’s just paint. …



“Each age finds its own technique.” - Jackson Pollock