Digital Pianos

brook · 2022-10-10T05:29:21.951Z

Classically trained pianist here so take this as a probably overly-fussy view:

I’ve tried So. Many. Digital pianos. I’ve bought and returned (or kept and fought with) many.

Another important caveat to the below: I only use these with Pianoteq. I don’t use the built-in sounds. I acknowledge that some of the built-in sounds (and some sample-based VSTs) can sound more “realistic”, but as a player, I find playing sampled pianos disorienting. It’s just hard to connect, to feel what I’m playing. Pianoteq feels like an instrument to me. That said, Roland uses similar physical modeling techniques for their stage pianos, and I find those even more disorienting to play than sampled pianos.

SO - the pianos/controllers. None tick all my boxes. Very few have what I consider a playable, expressive and ergonomic action. Many of those that come close unfortunately also have extremely loud physical key noise - unlike an acoustic, where components of that sound vary in volume based on how hard you play, most of these loudly THUNK (especially on return) even when playing very softly. And many of the quieter actions don’t stay quiet - after several months, they get loud.

I also want/need portability (for performing) and at least some control options. At the very least mod wheel, pitch, continuous signal for the three pedals (instead of on-off) and ideally an expression pedal input.

After many many years fighting so many digital pianos, I’ve finally settled into two - they’re not perfect, but they’re as close as I’m going to get: A Roland RD-2000 for the studio (too heavy for gigging) - the quietest action, and while it’s not identical to a good acoustic upright or grand, it is ergonomic (maybe a little bit stiff, but not nearly as heavy as the digital Yamahas), relatively quiet (a strange little swish sound as the key goes down but otherwise OK), has the right pedal inputs, two mod wheels and pitch bend. The faders and rotaries are 7 bit and a pain to program for externals or soft synths, and like all but the Nord Grand and the Viscounts has no flat space for placing other controllers and a laptop (let alone a second keyboard), but it’s the closest I’ve found to workable for Pianoteq and software synthesis work.

My second - for performing and, as of a few months ago, my bare bones studio room in Portland where I’ve just started living part time - is also a Roland, the RD-88. It has issues. Heavier but very playable action as long as it is level - tilt it, and the action sort of departs from the keys. Not as loud as most actions but still a bit more than I like. But lightweight, consistent (for a lightweight model) velocity response over the length of each key, pretty good for repetitions, and over time I’ve started really enjoying it.

I’ve tried almost every reputable Kawai, Korg, Studiologic, Yamaha, Nord, Viscount, Casio stage / portable model, and have owned more than I can bear to admit. these are the only two I’ve even able to make peace with.

A slight exception - for what they are, and their cost, the Casio PXS models are worth considering if key noise doesn’t bother you too much and your playing isn’t at the level that velocity response changing significantly as you move closer to the fallboard will bother you. They are very well designed.

And I know a few people with have similar considerations to mine who prefer the Kawai VPC/MP11/MP7se models. I didn’t gel with these.

The action on the on the 2000 and even the 88 also really open up expressive capabilities for my soft synth patches (mostly Zebra, Bazille, F-Em these days). Not in the same way as a Continuum (can’t wait for my Osmose), but different patches for different controllers…

Don’t know if that’s all helpful or just cranky ranting but I hope it’s the former!

Klangschmied · 2022-10-10T09:53:41.734Z

Anybody out there, who installed PianoTeq on a Raspberry Pi and had experience with it? Found this link on modartt website:A quick way to install Pianoteq 7 and tweak system on Raspberry Pi 4B (Page 1) - Pianoteq user forum - Modartt user forum

eblomquist · 2022-10-10T10:20:22.484Z

Given your wide range of experience, I’m curious whether you have tried the Arturia Keylab 88MkII?

My bandmate has one and it feels quite nice to me, but I’m a hack pianist

Olivier · 2022-10-10T11:57:02.493Z

Wow, no — this is incredibly helpful. Thanks for taking the time to share all of that.

brook · 2022-10-10T15:59:53.208Z

I have, and I also owned a studiologic controller with the same action. The good: has aftertouch (rare for digital pianos/weighted controllers), good repetition, very even velocity response, lightweight enough for gigging. The bad: tiring to play, somewhat noisy at first and got really noisy over time, keys became wobbly/loose. I think the Arturia would follow a similar path.
The Arturia control layout is nice though. If you’re not playing difficult passages and key noise isn’t a concern it’s worth considering.
I should note that many players don’t share my key noise concerns - I don’t understand but I envy them! For whatever reason it seriously interferes with my focus (and the thunk-thunk sound ends up on tracks if I’m using live mics in the same room. )

TanaBarbier · 2022-10-10T18:27:07.892Z

I have no piano playing experience but I remember a fellow from conservatory days that was a classical piano teacher and said that Pianoteq sounded and felt “good enough, almost real” for him, I took that as a good sign, as the guy spent almost 12h / day in front of his 60.000€ acoustic piano every day… From the recordings I do like it a lot, specially in the soft soft soft playing, so musical, natural…

eesn · 2023-09-23T07:40:16.195Z

Alfred_Fred1:

I have gone through Abletons settings so many times that I just assume it is not possible to have an immediacy that doesn’t disrupt your playing.

I have a Roland RD-64 the sounds on which i don’t particularly love. So I occasionally use it with Noire (Kontakt) in Logic. Here are things that matter in that sort of setup.

connection - MIDI cable to your audio interface or via USB through hubs etc - the latency will be different
plugins with latency in the audio chain or on your DAW master buss - anything like e.g. a look-ahead limiter introduces noticeable latency unless you can turn off its lookahead feature. Similar for spectral processors.
audio buffer size: The lower it will go without glitching or clicking - the better. 256 samples at 48kHz makes around a 10ms roundtrip for audio (or MIDI latency + 5ms for a soft synth). Sounds like for you that buffer size might be the absolute upper limit?

monopole · 2024-04-11T08:55:22.452Z

This was very helpful! Thank you.
Do you have any recommendations for portable and study stands for the RD-88?

radioedit · 2024-04-11T10:23:48.482Z

monopole:

Do you have any recommendations for portable and study stands for the RD-88?

I have one of these. It’s on the very edge of “portable” but it’s definitely sturdy:

malmomusikaffar.com

Flattop Med Extra Arm

Väldigt stabilt och ihopfällbart keyboardstativ. Med plats för två keyboards, övre delen är vinklingsbar. Kan användas till tyngre digitalpianon med max. vikt på 80 kg. på nedersta hyllan. Record KS-5

Price: SEK 1059

monopole · 2024-04-11T13:33:49.236Z

Thanks for the suggestion. I have the one linked with the extension arms, it’s very sturdy but almost 10kg (more with the arms) and I was looking for something lighter, seems the one you linked is 13kg. Looks great but the swap doesn’t make sense.

GUIL

Double brace X-style keyboard stand - Ref. ST-113 | GUIL

Keyboard stand with double “X” reinforced base that gives it maximum strength and stability. Load capacity of 80 kg.

Est. reading time: 2 minutes

brook · 2024-04-13T01:58:34.567Z

From your “monitoring while recording” comment I assume (perhaps incorrectly) your concern is based on the experience of latency when recording the output of the MP7se. THAT latency is worse than you will get controlling Pianoteq. With Pianoteq (or any plugin instrument played via midi) there is a tiny bit of midi-based latency, and then output latency. But recording the MP7se, you also have input latency. The combination would be horribly distracting - but it’s much worse than you’ll get with Pianoteq or another VST.

With Pianoteq I find a 128 buffer setting works even for classical work with very fast passages. 64 is of course better. At least with my MOTU interfaces this is no problem with Pianoteq. (FD I use a Roland RD2000 and an RD88 rather than an MP7se). Any perceptible latency CAN be a little distracting, but in this case it’s not even as distracting as trying to play fast passages precisely in a somewhat “live” room. Even in the fully analog realm, latency / delay and related sonic distraction is everywhere.

eesn · 2024-04-13T10:42:06.004Z

Alfred_Fred1:

sometimes it works without latency and sometimes it is present

In my experience, plugins on the active track or on busses it sends to, or on the master chain, can affect latency via the DAW’s automatic delay compensation. Logic has a dedicated “low latency” button to bypass all those plugins. But it’s also a case of knowing what to expect - IR reverbs, look-ahead limiters, linear phase EQs, FFT-based plugins, all have longer delays. I have a virtual instrument piano that I really like. It lives alone in a project, with just a simple built-in EQ and compressor on the same track, and nothing else – très low latency.

n9n9n9 · 2024-04-15T15:41:18.819Z

If your buffer size in Ableton is 256 or less you should be hearing very managable latency. Some need 128 or 64 to feel right, but 256 is probably low enough. If you still hear latency with 128 check your plugins in Ableton – youre hearing delay compensation probably. There are a lot of plugins that add latency – specifically anything that uses FFT transforms which means a lot of high end EQs which use FFT to eliminate phase issues.

Anyway – in a new session with 128 sample buffer you shouldn’t hear latency.

I play Kontakt and Pianoteq pianos live in the DAW all the time… just be mindful of PDC.

ghostclub · 2024-06-11T04:43:34.416Z

I recently picked up a digital piano again, after perusing this thread as well as the recent discussion sparked by @squarepeig and @hermbot over here.

I have a limited budget and ended up going for a Casio Privia PX770. It’s compact, well-designed, and has very decent action for such an affordable price - it’s certainly streets better than my last digital piano, a semi-weighted Roland from the early '90s that my parents bought to replace the upright I first learned on, which they (unforgivably) sold.

The Privia is great to just sit down and play, although the speakers aren’t the best and the sound engine won’t set any hearts racing. The electric piano is nice, and the grand serviceable, but the rest of the on-board sounds are just alright.

I’ve been enjoying the Privia as a controller for the Pianoteq demo on my iPad (a total gamechanger), and I think I’ll stick with it over the on-board sounds or sampled instruments.

I’m going to sell a couple of Eurorack modules to get a Pianoteq Stage licence, but I’m totally stuck on which instrument packs to get. The Steinway Model D is a no-brainer, but I can’t decide between the Petrof and the U4 upright. The Petrof has such nuance and presence, while the U4 can be tweaked to emulate the charm of an old, well-loved but slightly detuned upright.

Do I choose the U4 for the nostalgia, or go for the Petrof, which is objectively a much better model, and subjectivity a dream to play? Or get both and ditch the Steinway? Or just choose one for now, and save for an extra instrument pack or an upgrade to Pianoteq Standard later on?

mistercharlie · 2024-06-11T06:16:27.175Z

I use the Steinway 99% of the time, but I also have the U4. One thing that might help you to choose is to check out the felted versions of the pianos. And also remember that if you end up playing the Steinway most of the time, it’s good to go for an alternative that contrasts with it.

n9n9n9 · 2024-06-11T06:31:13.790Z

20 characters of ireally love the upright in pianoteq.

ghostclub · 2024-06-11T07:40:03.604Z

Thank you both. Good advice re: going for something different. I’ll try the instruments with felt before making my decision, but I am leaning more towards the Steinway and upright now.

kwyj · 2024-06-11T12:58:27.390Z

I use the U4 all the time - on the Thelonius Monk preset. I’ve never ever played a grand piano so upright inspired presets always sound more natural to me.

graymazes · 2024-06-11T20:47:58.415Z

Ymmv obviously but my 2c

TL/DR

I chose petrof and u4 for my non-free piano models and am happy with those.

I also have got a lot of use out of the electric tines/reeds pack - best value for me

Long version

I went for the Pro bundle. But this is a lot of money and I don’t think I would have done so had it not been classifiable as a work expense. That said, I think the extra engine features are really special - setting physical parameters per note can allow construction of wonderfully unique instruments.

Personally I would be unhappy with anything less than the Standard version, which unlocks tuning features - a huge benefit of digital instruments.

Maybe worth noting that I’m mostly not using this for traditional piano practice, I usually use the software with a linnstrument.

My fourth instrument pack selection was the Hohners, which maybe I regret a little.

ears · 2024-06-11T23:58:26.083Z

I have a nicer digital piano but my cheap light Privia PX330 still gets a lot of use. I have several friends that also have one and love it. Been lusting over the PX-S7000HM but so far keeping my bank account intact.