Drums – Learning

samuel_wade · 2023-03-10T18:20:27.997Z

Interesting breakdown. Sharpens my GAS for a little accent stack by the hats.

(“You’ve posted a lot in this topic! Consider giving others an opportunity to reply here and discuss things with each other as well.” )

Kurpitsa · 2023-06-07T09:34:10.923Z

Larnell Might not be my personal favourite drummer, but I think he might be the “Objective” best modern drummer alive right now…

we can have some debate on the “objectivity” and is he the best, but can’t think of anyone else that has so deep understanding of rythm with good sense of aesthetics, absolute technique and ability to play anything. Deep love for the art of drumming, big up Larnell Lewis

Agraham1987 · 2023-06-09T11:28:45.988Z

Hmmm Larnell is certainly one of the best alive right now for sure. But to say “objectively THE best”…it just can’t be right.
You could say the same about someone like Matt Gartska - master of the instrument in so many different styles and a great educator with his mastering time series but again you can’t say he’s the best because there are just so many other great players.
It’s what makes art the greatest - there is no definitive “best”.

Kurpitsa · 2023-06-14T20:00:23.647Z

as I argued against myself, it is hard and impossible (and maybe a dumb idea) to even think of something in the term of “objective” in the field of music and plying, but in my books atleast…

Gartska is certainly up there, there are so many different approaches to learning, so maybe i understand the playing of Lewis better than Gartska, and that already makes it subjective, so as u said, nothing is objective!

El90 · 2023-06-30T18:27:22.783Z

I’ve been learning on a Roland electronic kit which uses the TD50 sound module. I’m using the handy feature allowing for me to record each individual drum as a separate track into my DAW over USB. I then process the tracks using external effects (in particular my Elektron Analog Heat via Overbridge). My difficulty is this: currently I have to record all my tracks ‘dry’ first and then experiment with external processing afterwards, because the latency of sending everything to my PC, through external effects and back is significant enough to create an audible flam and mess with timing. I’d be very interested to know if anyone else is using a similar setup and if so how you’ve addressed latency issues?

Lemmy · 2023-07-01T08:42:20.811Z

I have a basic Alesis kit, and when playing it I usually use trigger drum sounds on my computer instead of using the built in sounds. I am able to set my sound interface to 32 samples buffer size and that only very occasionally results in sound streaming glitches. At that small buffer size latency isn’t an issue for me. I can’t use such low buffer sizes with my laptop’s built in audio. So it’s probably about having good audio drivers. Haven’t used external effects processing here…

samuel_wade · 2023-07-06T22:54:38.607Z

I’m behind because of travel, but am now onto Week 4 of Drumeo’s 30-Day Chops course (sample and trailer here), and having a lot of fun with it. I really like the format: daily ten-minute “workouts” gradually elaborating on rudiment-based grooves. It starts fairly gently each week, but there have been several things I’ve had to go back over and work on. It’s much more groove-based than the trailer suggests, which was a pleasant surprise.

SPIKE · 2023-07-07T06:04:24.239Z

Kurpitsa:

Larnell Might not be my personal favourite drummer, but I think he might be the “Objective” best modern drummer alive right now…

best drummer walking the planet is Vinnie Colaiuta.
i’m not particularly a big fan of his or anything but his technical skill and absolute mastery of the drum set is far above and beyond most humans.

Claude · 2023-07-14T03:38:03.136Z

I am into my second year playing drums, not going for “well-rounded” or “versatile”, just trying to do what feels right. Here’s a clip from last weekend:

Happyanimal1 · 2023-07-14T05:10:42.015Z

Been playing for 20 years, solely focused on jazz for the last 10. Not sure what style OP was looking to approach but if you don’t already learn to read. There are so many books out there you can eat through to become great-

Foundational for anyone learning the drums:
Syncopation
Master studies

samuel_wade · 2023-07-18T21:01:25.587Z

I sat down to learn Spaven’s Hoodie Beats, and the bit where your hands uncross is ridiculously satisfying.

Agraham1987 · 2023-07-19T07:54:39.560Z

The absolute king so glad he’s tapping into the educational side of things

samuel_wade · 2023-08-19T17:08:48.858Z

I’m really enjoying these speed and endurance exercises from El Estepario Siberiano (“The Siberian Steppe” ). They’re on Drumeo, but “free” in exchange for an email address. He has a load of stuff on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram etc as well, but I couldn’t find all these there.

(edit: it would be reasonable to wonder by now if I’m shilling for Drumeo. I’m not, I promise, they just have some really good stuff on there.)

Lemmy · 2023-10-05T09:19:05.484Z

Not sure if this is the right thread for this… but I am looking for recommendations. I had a drum lesson, on an acoustic kit, after a year of learning by myself on an Alesis electronic kit.
The sheer physical difference made me feel that I had to move on to start playing on either an acoustic kit, or an electronic kit with acoustic-style drums. The teacher recommended the Thomann own-brand electronic kits, which are like acoustic kits with built-in triggers and a module.
However, one thing that strikes me (!) with acoustic kits is the difference when playing the hihats (in particular). It seems that one can practice timing on an electronic kit, but not the nuance of tone and volume, in spite of volume sensitivity in drum sensors.

So now I’m considering getting a compact acoustic kit, and fitting it out with triggers, and perhaps getting a set of mesh heads for quiet playing. I know that doesn’t solve the hihat issue, but I could have a normal set of hihats with low-volume cymbals, and another electronic one for recording midi.
On the other hand I could just get a Thomann kit and a separate set of normal hihats.

So, some questions:
Does anyone have experience of ‘club’ or compact drum kits and has recommendations–purely from the point of view of acoustic playing?
Has anyone fitted out an acoustic kit with triggers, and if so were the results satisfactory?
I was looking at using the eDrumIn to trigger computer-based kits, rather than a module with built-in sounds. Audiofront - eDRUMin But I am open to suggestions.

chawps · 2023-10-05T15:17:33.467Z

Short answer: an electronic drum set will never have the same nuance as an acoustic kit, especially for cymbals. The tech just isn’t there (yet) in my experience.

Companies are making impressive progress in capturing the intricacies of playing acoustic drums, with Sunhouse Sensory Percussion, GEWA Digital Drums and Roland V Drums being a few big players in my head on that front. However, those solutions are prohibitively expensive – closing in on used car prices – require complicated setup, or both. And I’m still yet to hear digital cymbals that I’ve been impressed by.

Despite all that, I still think electronic drums are incredible and I play them very often. Think of them as different tools for different tasks. I wouldn’t use my Octapad for a jazz combo, and I wouldn’t use my acoustic bop kit for playing techno ( although…). Both options have their strengths, and trying to force one into a situation where the other is more appropriate will always have drawbacks.

For your situation, I think the big first question to answer is what are you trying to accomplish? Learning the intricacies of a complex acoustic instrument? Recording MIDI drum parts for electronic music? Getting high-quality acoustic drum sounds at home? The answer to this will help decide where to go next.

If you want to learn touch, nuance, texture, dynamics – you should find some solution around acoustic drums and cymbals, which could include mesh heads/low-volume cymbals. If you want to have easy MIDI recording with polished modern drum sounds, electronic drums would be a good solution.

I have all the options you’ve mentioned: full acoustic kit(s), a full electronic kit, and a small club kit outfitted with mesh heads and triggers. Each one is the right choice in the right situation, but it depends what I’m going for. Happy to go into more detail if you’re curious of pros/cons or more of my experience, but I think the first question is still “What are you trying to accomplish with your drumming?”

Lemmy · 2023-10-05T15:53:47.691Z

Thanks for that. Good points. Of course I want it all! But failing that I do have some priorities. One guiding factor is that I only have space for one kit, so a hybrid solution would be ideal if I can get it to work. I’m also attracted to the space-saving aspect of having a smaller bass drum, hence my interest in compact kits.

So, what do I want to achieve? You summarised the options pretty well.

Develop general playing competence/skill
Develop familiarity in playing with acoustic drums, learn more about the physics and responsiveness of percussive instruments and take advantage of the tonal possibilities. So that I can feel there is some subtly to my playing when at an acoustic kit.
Capture performances as midi for composing purposes.

Recording acoustic drums with mics to a good standard would be nice goal further down the road but it’s not a priority for now. If I can use midi triggers to capture grooves and feel that would be ideal.

I’m looking to make one kit achieve all of these, which may be unrealistic. I found that my electronic kit was good for 1), but I struggled to transfer those skills to a larger acoustic kit. I feel that even a compact acoustic kit would be a big improvement in that regard. That would also take care of 2). So then for 3) I would need to add triggers and an electronic hihat.

With that in mind it would be really interesting to hear how well your club kit with triggers has worked out for you.

chawps · 2023-10-09T19:58:29.959Z

It sounds like a good option for you would be a hybrid kit, which is how I have my club kit set up. Mine is a mini Tama Cocktail Jam with Remo SilentStroke heads. When I have it set up for “acoustic” playing, I use a set of Zildjian LV80 low-volume cymbals with it. I was really happy with how much this felt and sounded like a “real” drum set – I was able to play with with a lot more nuance than I had ever been able to use on an electric kit with rubber pads for drums and cymbals. And I could play this in an apartment, which was my initial motivation for going down this route.

When I’m using it in a hybrid setup, I use Sensory Percussion triggers. They’re really cool and sound incredible but are an investment in time, money, and setup – requires a laptop, audio interface, training the sensors, etc. If you want something simpler/cheaper/more plug-and-play, I would use more generic triggers like the Red Shot triggers from ddrum. I use two Sunhouse triggers and one Redshot trigger on my hybrid kit. I then I have a multipad that works like the ‘brains’ of the rig (an SPD-30 in my case). I plug the bass drum trigger in there, use the pads for hihats/other sounds, and use the SP triggers via the computer for the rest. You could get pretty much any small multipad for that as long as it has inputs for triggers and an input for a hihat controller. Not all of them do, so definitely pay attention to the jacks on the back. Electronic hihat controllers are still different than real hihats (as you’ve noticed), but that should suffice for recording MIDI or triggering a drum library from your computer.

Essentially you’d have two main setups this way: “acoustic mode” with the low-volume cymbals for practicing touch and feel, then swapping out the cymbals for the multipad in “electronic mode” to get clean MIDI recordings. “Electronic” mode would still have most of what you want feel wise, with a compromise on cymbals for ease of recording.

Hope this helps!

Lemmy · 2023-10-10T19:32:04.050Z

Thanks, this is really useful. What you suggest is very much along the lines that i was thinking, so it’s great to hear that you’ve done it successfully. I’m looking at getting a compact kit which I will treat to make quiet. I am looking at the Zildjian L80 cymbals and possibly the Evans db One mesh heads. The Yamaha Stage Custom Hip kit looks like a good option because the bass drum is 20" (x8") so there will be a db One head to fit it. I also like the look of the PDP New Yorker kit, though I don’t think the db Ones would fit the smaller bass drum. My thinking is to be able to switch the heads so that I still have the option to play at normal acoustic levels. Do the SilentStroke heads actually sound musical or they just deaden the sound?

I will then look at adding triggers in a second phase, once I’ve looked at all the options, and can afford it. It would be very nice to be triggering sample-based kits, especially when playing a ‘quiet’ kit, and to be able to capture the feel of a performance via midi.

chawps · 2023-10-18T15:47:17.927Z

I’d think of mesh heads like decaf coffee/light beer/fat-free cream cheese: they’re definitely not as good as the original, but with appropriate expectations, they can be a reasonable replacement (except for fat-free cream cheese; that stuff sucks).

Will they sound as musical as real heads? No. Will they sound musical enough to make playing a rewarding experience? To me, yes: I find the drastic reduction in volume to be absolutely worth the reduction in tone/musicality.

As far as picking a kit, I would very strongly advise against picking one because the drums are the right size for the brand of heads you want to use. Get a kit you like and then find the heads that fit. In the case of the PDP New Yorker, you are right that Evans mesh heads wouldn’t fit, but you can get a 16" mesh bass drum head from Remo or Aquarian. Heads are temporary and replaceable; drums are permanent. This mentality is especially valuable if you want to swap heads and play the kit acoustically.

I would also consider getting a used kit and/or a lower quality kit. When you’re putting mesh heads and triggers on shells, the quality of the shells matters less. This won’t work as well if you also want to play with real heads, but if you want this kit for only mesh head/trigger use, the quality of the shells is honestly not that important as long as they’re round.

yaxu · 2023-10-19T08:22:46.970Z

Nice thread!
I’ve been learning a little while, but not with any goal in mind, just enjoying it for the sake of it.

I built up my own mini electronic kit with an alesis strike minipad as the ‘brain’, which I found second hand with a kick and hi hat pedal. I added two roland mesh pads and a rubber one to use as a hi hat. It means I have loads of pads (with the 9 on the multipad) and can leave it set up all the time in the corner of my studio without taking up too much space.

I had a couple of lessons but really have focussed only on basic rudiments the last couple of months. It’s just a nice thing to do to clear the head between tasks. I got a little bit obsessed with this routine, which I just find really musical and engrossing in its own right!

I feel like I’m getting up to speed with the doubles (although the way Rob Brown offsets them I find a bit too tricky).

Now I’m trying to get paradiddles following the technique in this video:

Getting there slowly…

I’m kind of enjoying the delayed gratification of just focussing on this, just on the snare or mainly on a practice pad actually… Looking forward to getting onto using the rest of the kit again but holding back fro now!

I’ve been learning konnakol as well and am looking forward to trying out putting it together to explore carnatic rhythms on the drums.