I am using a pair of KM184s overhead (semi-recorderman/Glyn Johns style), and still toying with a couple of options out in front of the kit. I have actually had great success pairing the above with a radio shack PZM a few feet in front of the kick, but it’s an antique and is becoming pretty flaky, unfortunately.

Your comments makes me think I simply need to lower the overheads and crank the preamp a bit more. Maybe I’ve had too much room in the equation.

2 Likes

i’m gonna second @Joseph‘s recommendation of the aquarians - i actually don’t use them because of how present the texture is. and it doesn’t wear off or break in much that i can tell. lots of jazz drummers love these heads for brushes.

i actually like having to pull the sound out a little - i guess it works for my brush technique? so i stick with coated ambassadors.

2 Likes

That’s cool. So you have some nice mics to play with. I often use over the shoulder recorder man kind of arrangement with Coles, also trying to center the kick a little more. But I always do it by ear to get the cymbal vs shell balance right (which obviously changes with the cymbal set up), not by precise distance.

For bushes, yeah, I tend to mic OH closer than I otherwise would. But I don’t mic the snare that close. I don’t like that sound, I prefer more dimensionality and it’s easier to mix with other mics too because of inverse-square law. For this reason I tend to select spot mics that have really good off-axis response because I end up with more cymbals in the close mics.

What options are you playing with in front of the kit?

You should try everything you have. If you have an LDC I would try that as a mono overhead (and maybe use 184s for stereo room in front), since that is kind of a classic sound with snare and “foot” mic.

Or you could try something like this

In any case, try to get the snare sounding as good as possible in the overheads before you even mess with snare mic (more for detail/reinforcement). Check in mono. Seems like you know all this already, but just to reiterate.

For a room mic I tend to put it where it sounds best on its own, which more often than not is along the diagonal axis of the kit maybe 10-15 feet away. Sometimes I just throw up an 87 in omni.

M160s tend to sound good on ride I find.

1 Like

Thank you! That is fantastic advice, and very well timed. I know a little bit, but foremost is how much I have yet to learn. It’s just damn fun to experiment. I am very much appreciative and will (attempt to) put that advice into play over the next few days. I’m definitely an admirer of the Van Gelder sound. Really hot take there, I know.

I currently have a pretty unorthodox mic locker built up over the years. My favorites are the KM184s, but I also have an assortment of others, ranging from my janky PZM (second favorite - but better at max volume), and a thrift store find or two, an old ElectroVoice RE-10, a crappy beyerdynamic m422 (used to grab snare and kick at once), an Oktava MC12, a 57 (of course) and a Townsend Sphere. No true LDCs in the mix.

I’ve actually not had much success with the Sphere (it’s the one that’s been out in front of the kit), despite high hopes, so unless it starts earning its keep it may be headed to another home soon.

Thanks again to everyone for the help.

1 Like

Cool. Yes, the main thing is to experiment a lot, because there are so many variables.
Like people often say don’t use fig-8 mics when you don’t want too much room, but true fig-8 ribbon mics have very deep side nulls, much more so than cardioid. So you can null really loud things from across the room. Same with low ceilings and early reflections. They can make mics you would normally use not sound so good and make mics you wouldn’t think would work well work better simply because they have a smoother or darker response. It really just depends on the room and placement what works or not.

Try miking the drum shell too.

I think it’s always good to throw random mics up for the controlled bleed sound heard on 60s records (like from a vocal or horn mic), which brings the excitement. Drummers tend to like that sound, for good reason.

I really like the RE-10. For live vocals, and can get a nice sound on silverface or Ampeg VT amps and sometimes rock snare, generally a 70s thing.

I often see the omni 635a recommended by those with experience for room mic, mono drum mic and amps, but I haven’t used it myself. I have heard room mic recordings and it can certainly sound good in that role.

The best 57 I’ve heard is the TAB transformer mod. Makes the response a bit fuller and less edgy. There are those who swear by the Unidyne 57s but I think the TAB has the most resolution.

Have you tried putting the Sphere down low, maybe 6 feet back from the kick? Sometimes you can get a nice depth/bloom that way. Useful for slower tempo songs.

A Beyer M88 can sound really impactful on kick, bass cab, and pretty detailed condenser-like on vocals. You have to get the pop shield though.

1 Like

A little pricey but these are amazing.

2 Likes

Just came across this guy’s work - really inspiring:

18 Likes

That’s really badass!

2 Likes

another aspect to consider is how tight the snares are (maybe tighter) as well as how tight the heads are (maybe tuned tighter) metal shell will be brighter also dig the double wide snares… sounds fun :slightly_smiling_face:

1 Like

I thought some of you might enjoy Sean Meehan’s work. All acoustic drums but tonally a lot in common with minimal electronics.

16 Likes

Hi, love this line of discussion.
Thru a lag in the communication process, I found out late in the process that we would be responsible for the music licensing in a video of our dance company.
We’ve been working with this material using 60s & 70s soul music and I’ve been toying with ways of creating original music to bring some of that vibe. Anyway, I had to create an entirely new sound track for an already shot and edited piece. Fortunately since I did the original sound design, I had the timeline and tempo map already laid out.
I had this great drummer come in and trace the outlines of the songs one by one. Honestly with more time I would have done more, but I’m pretty happy with the results.
Drums were recorded with 3 mics, D112 on the kick, Advanced Audio U67 type and Coles 4038 ribbon at a distance of about 4 feet pointed at the kit. The thing I was going for was a variety of vintage-y drum tones from section to section using different combos of saturation, compression, EQ and ambience with different mic combos.
The encoding of the audio for the video is pretty awful, but let me know what you guys think. The choreography is by my wife Staycee Pearl. Our material is the first half.

1 Like

Nice drumming and sound. Excellent solution to your rights problem. Thanks for sharing.

1 Like

just now starting to experiment with actually recording the drums- this was literally my first attempt just throwing the mics up and hastily putting on some compression and saturation.

very hyped on that result, can’t wait to see where things get when I actually put some time and effort in. sm57 on the kick btw!

7 Likes

My role model: would love to be able to play the janggu this well.

2 Likes

Hey friends, I recently joined lines for modular discussion after seeing how focused this community is on process and music instead of just gear talk. I was surprised to see a thread about drums and wanted to drop a line.

I’ve played drums in a variety of bands ranging from hip-hop, funk, to free jazz(my secret drum passion). I’m a huge advocate for process and developing a philosophical relationship and understanding of the drumset and how to express your ideas be it melodic, rhythmic or free flow.

For anyone that’s reading and is interested in developing their innovative and creative approach on the drums instead of just learning to recite existing drumisms found in rock, funk, jazz, etc I have a few ideas I’ve picked up over the past 10 years immersing myself in the drums and live performance. Hopefully someone can find inspiration from this!

-Creative expression on drums (or any instrument) is based in a feeling and the way you connect a feeling to movement. Practicing yoga, learning to concentrate on breath and allowing movement to follow the pattern of the breath can be really valuable to develop motion on the kit

-Spend time flailing, move your arms, legs, and allow the sticks to freely go where they will. Don’t try to make a beat or judge if the resultant sound is musical. Just develop an openness to motion, in time this openness to motion will converge with technical skill

-Seek out technical exercises and master a few. This can be “boring” but it’s required to develop articulation and execution of ideas. Get comfortable creating your own exercises and adapting/changing exercises you find. Ultimately in order to develop your own voice, you need to have your own phrases, dynamics, conceptual approach to playing. As far as specific technical exercises I highly recommend 1. getting a teacher because they will show you proper form and technique that will allow you to develop a solid foundation. 2. Learn paradiddles and their permutations. A vast majority of drumming is alternating the left and right hand between drums in either a single or double hit. Paradiddles will equip you with this facility.

-Separate practice into “technical” and “creative” sessions. During technical sessions always use a metronome, record yourself, listen back for dynamics, timing, how the drums sound and calibrate what it felt/sounded like when you were playing vs listening back. This is crucial. During creative sessions, don’t worry about exercises and metronomes. Just explore.

-When practicing with a metronome, add an ambient pad sound behind the metronome. The pad will fill in the space between the metronome beats and allow you feel more of a flow.

-Find people to play with, try to communicate up front about skill level and intentions so as to connect with the best people for you to play with. Record these jam sessions and listen back. Playing with people is maybe the single most important part of developing as a musician because it gives context to the time spent practicing and will guide what you should focus on to improve.

-Play along to records. You can play with the best bass and piano players this way!

-Use a drum machine like a Korg Volca Beats or Digitakt as a learning tool. Create a specific beat on it and then play along to it. This allows you to easily change the tempo, remove/add complexity as needed

-Download the Drum Genius app. It’s a collection of beat loops ranging from jazz to rock to odd time signatures. You can slow down/speed up the beats.

-Cymbals! Don’t compromise on cymbals, you can get cheap drum kits and make them sound good with the right heads and tuning but a bad cymbal can’t be compensated. Also spend time with just your cymbals, explore the bells, hitting the edges, scraping a stick across, playing at the edge, the middle, near the bell, crash it, play it with mallets to make it swell like an ocean wave. I’m a big fan of Zildjian Kerope and Constantinople. As a general rule of thumb, a cymbal that is heavier than 100 g/inch will be more of a ride, whereas cymbals less will exhibit more crash like qualities. This isn’t a hard line because the lathing and hammering will influence the feel in addition to the weight/size ratio. I like turkish style hammered cymbals like Istanbul Agop, Bosphorus, and Zildjian’s Kerope or Constantinople line.

-Sing while drumming

Laslty, and most importantly
-Read Effortless Mastery by Kenny Werner, it completely changed how I approach learning an instrument.

If anyone has any questions about process, exercises, overcoming plateaus, etc feel free to reach out.

Some music of mine

(Free improv)

(Hip-hop/funk/jam band EP)

14 Likes

me (drums) and John (bass) played for 20 min into one mic and a DAT
I made a loop, and Laura sang two passes of vocals
then, I cut it into this track :slightly_smiling_face:
2 Likes

As a right-footed drummer my left foot is a bit of a slouch compared to my right. Anyone have any favorite exercises or patterns to play to work on improving? I have a double kick pedal and I can play most simple beats left-footed and do slower alternating single strokes but as soon as my left and right feet are doing something more complicated than alternating I get lost. Would like to be able to use my left foot to trigger different sounds rather than just have it sitting there most of the time.

1 Like

If you want to go off the deep end, try the book 4 Way Coordination. Basically it is rudiments for all four limbs. There is a free version available online.

I really miss playing the drum set sometimes, but synths and drum machines are much more conducive to apartment life.

2 Likes

I got you homie. I’m a jazz guy and don’t play double pedal so can’t really give specific technique examples there but I can help you with your left foot hi-hat. First it’s important to examine the role of hi-hat at a higher level. 90% of music calls for time keeping in hi-hat. (A big part of getting deeper with drumming is being able to compartmentalize the role of each drum while not attaching yourself to those roles, however it’s first important to study the roles.)

For exercises here’s what I worked on to develop my left foot:

-Pick an easy and slow beat for you to play between kick, snare, ride, then start playing the hi hat foot chick on the following beats: quarter notes, 8th notes, on 2&4, offbeat quarter notes, & quarter note triplets. The important thing is to keep that same kick,snare,ride beat the same. If you haven’t practiced this before it’s going to be trickier than it sounds and that’s ok. Allow yourself to struggle as that’s part of the process. Work on these for a few weeks. You want to get to a point where you can smoothly play several measures of quarter notes, then easily switch to 8th notes, quarter note triplets, on the off beat, etc. Once you’ve mastered this move on to the next step

-Do the same left foot exercises but pick a new drum beat to play them to. Feel free to challenge yourself and get creative here. These simple hi-hat subdivisions against various beats will cover 90% or more of anything you would ever need to do with your left foot

-The theme thus far has been that the left foot on the hi-hat serves the role as a timekeeper, let’s stretch this concept. Now start working on various paradiddle exercises on your snare drum while permutating through the same hi hat patterns mentioned above. If you’re looking to really, really develop your coordination I recommend starting to do paradiddles between the snare with one of your hands and the kick drum while keeping constant beat with the left foot. Again, in 90% of scenarios your left foot needs to be rock solid. You will notice that eventually your left foot will just automatically start going and you can do things with the rest of your limbs quite easily while your left foot is just bopping away.

Often times it’s necessary to simplify things dramatically in order to progress. One step back two steps forward. If you find yourself having a tough time with the above exercises then put the sticks down and just work on your feet. Work on paradiddles, singles, and a basic 3/4 polyrhythm. Make sure to alternate which foot is the lead.

As a general rule of thumb for progressing into 4 way coordination I recommend picking specific beats you want to learn, transcribe them by ear, then learn each limb of the beat on it’s own. Don’t worry about putting it all together yet. So first nail the right hand part, then just get the left hand part, then the left foot, then right foot. Then try doing the two easiest of those rhythms together at the same time, maybe the left foot and right hand are easiest so do those together. Then change one of those limbs for another. You’re basically going to make sure that you can play the beat on any combination of two limbs, then three, and then finally bring it all together. This will give you a deep understanding of how the entire interrelates. The drum genius app has a lot of cool beats you can slow down and work on these ideas.

4 Likes

This is great. Thanks so much for taking the time to type all this up.

Been listening to a lot of Billy Cobham lately so my goal for the year is to get more comfortable with my left foot and to be able to play most patterns open-handed. Mostly been playing along to Madlib beats lately so not playing anything super fast or complicated but already enjoying the freedom open-handed gives you even if I’m worse at it.

1 Like