#51

dixie is my only non-mangrove oscillator, but basically sending anything into linear FM input with the attenuator I feel like that little pot goes from 0 to 100 real quick and I have a hard time getting anything too interesting with it as the carrier. I’ve definitely had more success using both flavors of sync, or using at as the modulator. I’m sure I’m doing something wrong though and overstating it since so many people regard it as a bread and butter oscillator :stuck_out_tongue: I should probably experiment more!

definitely the technobear is right about avoiding the instinct that you’re missing something. something like the CO — when I tried it it was very much a “this is so cool! Also, now I know I don’t need it right now”. Sometimes paring down, like what i said about only keeping what’s interesting, even if it’s temporary and you don’t sell the things right away can help — like, okay I’ve got 6 modules left here what’s the connection I haven’t done before, what’s the weirdest thing I can do, and build from there. Along these lines 3 module challenges can be fun and inspiring sometimes :slight_smile: not necessarily musical but can push you out of the box towards a deeper understanding of your system.

2 Likes
#52

Also what do you want to control as part of performance and what are you ok with just running in background?
4 voices mean you need 4 trigger sources and 4 envelopes? Do you want to CV the envelopes? Do you want them to be related (Just Friends) or all separate (Stages for example).

1 Like
#53

I think this is one of those “you don’t know what you don’t know” situations for me.
Naively I would say I’d want to control all four voices (I was planning on extending Kria on norns to support 7 tracks (4 pitch+trigger from Ansible + 3 trigger from crow) and using microcell for texture as well as filler during transitions. But there might be better/easier/more interesting approaches that I’m not aware of.

My initial feeling on envelopes would be separate since I was planning on four separate voices but I have no experience with related envelopes so can’t really say if that would work better/if I would like that more.

What would you suggest/what have been your experiences?

1 Like
#54

not sure about whats possible with crow (I’m sure it’s similar, but most examples I’ve seen have had JF in sound mode), but with teletype you can control JF in shape mode and control them individually or have groups of related envelopes :slight_smile: They’re never completely independent because the shape and time that you set for them is related based on the knob settings. Related envelopes can be cool for polyrhythmic stuff or having things going in rhythm but different clock divisions (or in a subtractive synth set up opening and closing a vca and filter at the same time).

1 Like
#55

@simonvanderveldt
an area I’ve struggled with/still exploring is balancing the number of voices with creating interest.
I bought quite a few ‘voices’ , but the issue is for every voice, I found to make them more interesting, I needed lfo’s, env’s, vca’s… and potentially attenuators, and mixers. these all take up valuable rack space.
(then there are other interesting modular items like cv switches which might be fun)

imagine a desktop (mono) synth that just had one envelope and one lfo… it be considered pretty light on modulation… many these days will have at least a couple of each.

so the concern in my rack, is that id end up with lots of voices, but they might end up quite sterile.

in fairness, my rack is focused around MI modules, which contain built-in attenuators and vcas…
but still I realised that to get the most out of these modules, I want to be modulating them…
(clouds/microcell is an example that I really like quite a bit of modulation on )

I’ve also started exploring mixing CV modulation signals to create more interesting shapes, but again, that needs more vcas/mixers.

now this is very personal, but for me, its seems this is where modular is different, you have so many modulation possibilities, and thats an area I enjoy playing with.

thats not to say this is necessarily relevant to you/your rack, you have quite a lot of modulation source, but 4 voices might require a lot of modulation/control.

I guess at the end of the day, we all have to balance rack space and what we want / need :slight_smile:

a kind of general question… of canvasing of thoughts here…
my feeling is that modular voices take up quite a bit of ‘space’ and are often a bit more ‘complex’ that traditional voices, so you don’t need to have that many to create some nice pieces.
so perhaps you can get away with fewer voices?

5 Likes
#56

I’ve found analog FM to only really be useful in combination with wavefolding. Wavefolders really latch onto complexity in a waveform and bring out all the overtones you’d expect to hear from FM that you can’t get in analog without the carrier beginning to detune.

@simonvanderveldt I think you should ask yourself whether you like “west coast” sounds in other people’s music rather than what you see other people get excited about using. Make the sounds you like hearing.
I think you could put on pretty much any song that would make you go “that’s a damn good synth sound, I wanna sound like that” and be able to replicate it on your system.

I’ll throw in one more technique that people haven’t mentioned yet, which is amplitude modulation. AM sounds great in combination with wavefolding, filtering, sync sweeps (Rossum came out with a huge expensive module based around just this concept). Lots of fun.

5 Likes
#57

As a bit of context, I mostly do ambient evolving stuff. What I found out is that the faster something moves, changes, the more control and precision I need. But as a creative I tend to get better results when I’m curating modular, I don’t like programming stuff in and don’t get good results from trying to achieve something specific.
At first I got Stages for envelopes, but since getting Just Friends I use stages as harmonic oscillator exclusively. It lets me quickly change the feel of the patch, without trying to control individual voices.
Most of the time I use 2 oscillators for bass and melody and derive everything else from there. The key for me is to have initial sounds to be rich.
@TheTechnobear is right about needing a lot of modulation, I’d also add that having different effects helps

2 Likes
#58

I might suggest Warps – it’s a relatively small and inexpensive way to dip your toes into “complex oscillator” territory, since you can use its internal sine VCO (with TZFM) and wavefolder at the same time. It also will do ring modulation, vocoding etc. and if nothing else, you could just use it as a basic crossfader, VCA or extra VCO.

Warps was my introduction to West Coast sounds. I only let go of mine once I had a larger setup with a Hertz Donut and a uFold.

Another choice might be a SynthTech E352 or an IME Piston Honda. Both are excellent wavetable VCOs which support TZFM. Lots of sound possibilities there!

5 Likes
#59

In regards to wave folding - I’ve had several different wave folders and they’ve each had their own sound. The Ultafold sounds quite different than the uFold which sounds different from the Doepfer a-137-1 etc. I went through several and have settled on the Toppobrillo Triple Wave Folder, both for its sound and it’s flexibility. It might turn out that you don’t like wave folders, but it could be that you don’t like the sound of the Ultrafold and might fall in love with something else.

You probably already know this, but just in case you don’t I’ll mention it anyway - wave folding works best with sine and triangle waves. They do have an effect on saw waves but it will sound pretty distorted (too many harmonics); they won’t do much of anything to a square wave. Also, pay attention to your input level; it can have a huge effect.

3 Likes
#60

i was just about to write everything that @hinterlands said :slight_smile:

i have the uFold and really like it’s sound. i attenuate the sine osc (out of atlantis) quite a bit before running it into the wavefolder.

2 Likes
#61

Good advice above regarding wavefolding. You can also try to subtly introduce it into traditional subtractive patches. For example send a very short envelope to the fold cv when you trigger a vca on a new note so that the folding only occurs very briefly at the beginning of your vca envelope before the note rings out in the decay or release stage (or alternately fade the folding in as the release fades the note out, etc), use a folded sine as an fm modulator (as always, attenuation is your buddy), run your folded signal into a different filter and keep it low in the mix… you can also have some fun running LFOs through your folder.

5 Likes
#62

I have Ultrafold and I like the sound of it. One thing you need to keep in mind when using it is that its range is very high, meaning that when you have fold set to maximum, you have a sound that is very bright with the low end almost completely removed.
The input drive control will also distort (or at least it sounds like it’s folding a tiny bit) past 12 o’clock meaning you will get subtler sounds if it isn’t completely cranked.
In general it’s a module you need to exercise restraint with to get the best sound out of it, especially since it doesn’t have attenuators on its modulation inputs.

2 Likes
#63

I totally just hit the desire point for one or two of these kinds of utilities today while patching. What are some good, small options for this sort of thing?

1 Like
#64

Quadra in 1u is super useful, Shades or Triplat. There are many, depending how many channels you need

#65

I second the warps suggestion! It’s really versatile…
It’s also the only Mutable Instruments module that I use parasites on - the tape delay is great. The parasite firmware stays out of the way and is invisible when you want to use the module like a factory module. The tzfm feature is just great…

1 Like
#66

I mentioned it earlier, but I love the Happy Nerding 3xMIA. It’s 6hp and gives 3 channels of attenuverting/offsets or mixing. The only negative is that because of the knob design it’s hard to find zero if you’re using it for mixing and want to kill a channel. http://www.happynerding.com/category/3xmia/

MI Shades has some really nice features (switches to toggle between attenuating and attenuverting; can be used as a precision adder) but I prefer the 3xMIA as it’s more flexible and gives you twice as many channels in 6hp.

If 6hp is too big the Manhattan Analogue CVP is great (it can also do slew) and 4hp but is only one channel. ALM and SSF have 4hp dual attenuverter/offsets which I’m sure are great but I haven’t used either of them.

1 Like
#67

i’ve been loving the moog grandmother, but often want to patch more things than it can provide, so i think it is finally time to get into eurorack. another lfo is definitely desired, preferably one that can also hold its own as another voice with a different character than the grandmother’s waveforms. but then, even though i have intended uses for it, getting another oscillator isn’t as exciting as getting something that i don’t have a good understanding of (like any number of make noise modules that i’m interested in, or other seemingly complex / “deep” modules). the zen and discovery aspects of modular have really drawn me in, but it is hard to know where to aim. (my musical focus right now is creating soundtracks for outdoor/nature/adventure movies.) any advice?

#68

Thanks for all the information and suggestions everyone! Really appreciate it!

Lots to experiment and try, which is great!
I think I’ll be investing some time to try out FM and AM in different combinations with the modules I currently have. I’ll make sure to attenuate them and get a feel for how subtle FM and AM influence the sound.
I can then combine the results with the ultrafold and will also try out some mixing/combining of modulation signals and not having the wavefolding applied to the input all the time.

Just to make sure I understand this correctly: You’re saying that when using analog oscillators for FM the carrier needs to be detuned to get them to produce something like what we FMed digital oscillators produce?
And that wavefolding the analog oscillator’s FMed signal produces something similar?

I didn’t know stages could do that, that’s very nice! Seems a bit similar to Just Friend’s synthesis mode. Do you know how they compare?
Does the harmonic part of the name hint at similar behavior as the verbos harmonic oscillator?
With the latter sentence you mean you use the controls on stages (which I believe are pitch, waveform(?) and volume in this mode) when performing?

If you don’t mind the questions: How do you derive everything else from them? Do you create these derived sequences from the CV that controls these two oscillators or from the the audio they produce?

@hinterlands @shellfritsch So a high input level into your wavefolder didn’t produce a pleasing result? You always attenuate it down (a lot?) before going into your wavefolder?
I totally didn’t expect that, so that might be part of the problem.

I’m thinking it might help to see/learn from a good example: Does anyone have any suggestions for a video of what they feel represents a good example of wavefolding?

#69

More the opposite. Unless you want a very dissonant beating sound, your carrier and modulator need to be in tune with eachother. What’s frustrating with analog is that once you exceed a certain amount of linear FM, the carrier will rise in pitch and ruin that relationship (not to mention force you to retune just in general).
What I’m suggesting is that the little FM you do get before it starts drifting is excellent to feed a wavefolder to get a sound that is as rich as the range of digital FM once you sweep the fold.

1 Like
#70

Not necessarily. It’s just that attenuation really changes the sound, the same way that driving a filter will also change the sound. It depends on what you’re looking for. That’s one of the reasons using a vca before a wave folder can be so nice - by using a voltage to change the amplitude of the signal before the wave folder you can create more timbral variation.

But if you aren’t digging the sound of the Ultrafold, one thing to try would be attenuation. Play with it and see!

1 Like