#2048

Something that I have been noticing lately (although it is possible that it has always happened to me and I have realized it now) is that when I use Tip-Top type “stackable” cables and connect the upper cable to some jack of another module, there is a moment when which the audio is cut off. This is especially the case if the tip of the duplicate cable touches the grommet or outer jack of the module. Once connected everything is normal. If I join normal cables without duplicating there is no problem. Has something similar happened to someone else?

EDIT: I’m getting this problem when connecting one output to several different inputs.

#2049

I feel in a bit of a bind, because I’m sure you understand exactly how compression works, but I don’t know how to clarify my analogy without… explaining how compression works. I hope this doesn’t offend such a distinguished PhD in Cold Mac Studies :stuck_out_tongue: Maybe there’s something in my picturing of it that is mistaken, or that could help reveal angle… Gonna ignore attack and release (as I suspect this added layer may just obfuscate the thought).

Compression takes everything above a threshold and reduces it according to the ratio. If your threshold is 10, your ratio 2:1, and your signal peaks at 12, then your signal will now peak at 11, and all the sound below 10 will be unaffected (amplitude will increase at half its previous rate above the 10 threshold, and so will look “less steep”). An infinite ratio (limiter) will flatten your shit above the threshold – anything over 10 just stays at 10. The graph you posted looks, to me, identical to graphs I saw when first learning this stuff that would be a side-by-side comparison of a compressed and uncompressed signal (but at the envelope scale, rather than at the waveform scale, where compression is often working its magic – maybe this parenthetical contrast of scale is what makes them feel not-at-all similar).

I will say that this understanding is heavily colored by over-use of pretty extreme settings on compressors, and that I am far from an authority in this area. Also I should have said limiter with make-up gain in my initial post, probably.

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#2050

Turns out I only understand compression and limiting at an elementary level, and have very limited experience working with either. I can see if you had a DC-compatible hard limiter (does such a thing exist?) and use it to hard-clip an envelope, you could thusly flatten the peak of the envelope it in a manner like on the graph. But that seems like an improbable scenario.

The way I understand it, if CV is “turning a knob” for you, the 10v envelope—when sent to some modules—is trying to turn the “knob” further than it can actually go (depends on the module), so for the duration the envelope remains high enough, the “knob” is pinned at its maximum value.

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#2051

Yeah I don’t think a DC-compatible hardware limiter is a thing. I was thinking about envelope following the compressed sound – its “amplitude silhouette” looks like what you showed in the above graph.

Understanding why this CV phenomenon manifests as “punch,” for me, was what made compression a useful analogy (since “flattening” your signal via too much “punch” – too high a ratio, too low a threshold – is the standard amateur mistake, and one I’ve made a million times). Because, initially, I was thinking pinning the knob just gives you an ASR/D envelope, and it wasn’t clear why that is “punchier,” but relating it to compression is like “yeah… ‘louder for longer and articulated in less detail’ is precisely what people mean by ‘punch’ for a compressor.” (this picture is, again, a bit complicated by attack and release settings – slow attack lets more unreduced signal through and that momentary ‘click’, analogous to the noise impulse on a kick drum, is also a feature of real ‘punch’).

cool experience to share a new perspective with someone who has taught me so much <3

ps: the parenthetical thought at the end of the last paragraph got me thinking about how to accomplish that more complex shape via CV without a compressor. And, mapping it in paint to show off my grand discovery, I found it’s LITERALLY AN ADSR. Time is a flat circle.

ADSR

EDIT II: If these CV concepts were initially explained via analogy to gear one uses when sampling (like a compressor), I think it would be clearer to more people moving from sample-based music to synthesis (as I have in the past few years) that many parts of sample-processing / mixing can actually be accomplished directly via things like more nuanced envelopes – I now feel the urge to replace every envelope with a four-stage envelope, and to consider the kind of compression I would apply to a sound and just… do it via CV, which then makes the pseudo-compression portion of the sound-design itself performable / CV-able without the need for an external hardware/software compressor. This kind of faith in synthesis not as another instrument to process (like the switch from guitar to trumpet), but as a unique discipline in and of itself with different tools available to accomplish similar ends, is precisely what’s missing in the mindset of many aspiring sound-wizards (myself included). Here we see just another manifestation of the same fundamental problem that exists in discussing generative sequencing techniques vs “writing” music (I’ll stop here, as hard as it is…).

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#2052

This would be an interesting experiment to try. I’m trying to think of a way to combine an envelope and a constant DC voltage using logic to make a limiter but the ol’ gray matter is coming up short.

In my head what @mdoudoroff is saying about the envelope being clipped producing the punch makes sense and I’d be curious if there would be a noticeable difference in something like running an envelope to a vca and a “clipped” version of that envelope to filter cutoff at the same time, for instance. This might just be an exercise in tedium, though :wink:

There is the DPW limiter which cuts at 5v (which may not be enough for maximum punch in some cases? I guess if it’s the shape and not strictly the amplitude then this should be ok)

Also, of course, looking at the disting manual… in mono compressor mode you can set the ratio to infinity and the threshold level with another parameter which should do the trick I believe.

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#2053

incoming @mdoudoroff scope video titled “DON’T COMPRESS YOUR SYNTHS; DO THIS INSTEAD” comparing 5V ARs, 10V ARs, 10V ADSRs (with sustain doing the ‘pinning’ and AD doing the ‘clicking’), and a compressed signal. (I jest but… could be dope.)

Of course, there’s still a place for bus compression or normalizing a part, but running to a compressor for ‘punch’ just seems silly to me now.

this is the kind of dark arcana I came here for.

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#2054

So odd question: I just received a Qu-Bit Bloom and the jacks, they require so much force to get a patch cable in and out. I’ve got 7 other modules in an intellijel palette and none are like this.

Anyone else with a Bloom like this? Is it a Qu-Bit thing? It’s weirdly annoying.

#2055

Not a thing with my bloom, could it be the patch cables, are they of all the same make?

#2056

try patching the destination first, then the source later.
it may avoid the cut/pop/whatever.

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#2057

I’ve tried a few different patch cables by different brands. Same deal. It’s so tight that you could literally pick the palette up by the patch cable (not that I’m doing that).

Maybe I’ll have to shoot them a message, doesn’t seem right at all.

#2058

Oh! Indeed, the audio is not cut off if I connect the cable to the target jack first! Thanks for the tip!

#2059

I’ll post some scope pictures later but maths envelopes into Sputnik Quad Function look a lot like this…

#2060

Yep, it’s a Qu-Bit thing. Some of their other modules are like that too. Now that I’m used to it, I actually like how tight the jacks are – they feel very solid (maybe excessively so).

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#2061

Is it really typical for VCAs to clip the CV input so perfectly and drastically at 8V, though?

I would think saturating the signal above some level would be more typical, which, given an exponential decay envelope like that, would mainly just reduce the sharpness of the peak a bit. That’s how it seems to behave with my Xaoc Tallin. Attenuating the signal from Maths mostly just seems to quiet the entire shape of Tallin’s output across the board without a sigificant change in shape.

#2062

My premise may be shaky in some or all respects. As far as VCAs go, I’m not sure “typical” is a thing. I just tried to run some VCA and filter tests, but I didn’t really get anywhere, in part because of the particular mix of modules I currently have.

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#2063

Where do you fine folks like to source extra Eurorack power cables?

(and a link would be appreciated)

#2064

I got a couple of the “premium” ones from Modular Addict. They also have standard ribbon cables.

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#2065

but, a compressor also allows you to increase the total amplitude of your sound on the output stage after compressing the peaks. you can’t do this with a vca (you would perhaps need another vca or something to gain the signal with). not to mention the attack and release time, which is essential to getting punch. letting a tiny bit of the initial signal go above the threshold with a short attack time really gives it that punchy transient, and release time really affects “fattyness”.

#2066

Ah ok, thanks for this, good to know there’s nothing wrong with the module itself. I prefer the looser feel, but I’m sure I’ll get used to it.

#2067

Great points – My post two posts above the one you responded to covers this idea about attack – and includes an image!

My overall thought isn’t that COMPRESSORS ARE USELESS (hence the “I jest” in that post), but that it would be very productive for any musician to break down each point of the signal chain and wonder which functions might be, at least in part, accomplished elsewhere or by another means, in order to fold things in and create a more ‘integrated’ instrument. Too often folks (myself included) get caught in thinking “ok I have sound – treat sound with compression, delay, reverb. This will make it a Good Sound.” But, really, it’s often more musical to integrate the structural characteristics imparted by those utilities into a sound itself, so that going to them becomes more optional or ‘enhancing’ rather than ‘mandatory’.

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