#1882

Don’t sweat it, you’ll learn through using it and eventually you’ll understand. Don’t expect to understand it all at once from a manual!

And secondly, to patch you can just try all matter of things, audio rate modulation to certain inputs, self patching, who knows, no knowledge required to get useful / interesting results!

3 Likes
#1883

Cool.

Everything has been interesting…mind blowing in fact…I just want to know how so that I can replicate it again later or know what’s going to change.

#1884

hopefully, this is not too obvious a suggestion: if you lack an oscilloscope, you could patch Maths’s output to the 1v/o of an oscillator to get a sense what it’s doing, all the while making changes to better understand ‘why.’

#1885

Yeah no oscilloscope unfortunately.

That’s what I do. But for example this “arcade trill” patch…I have little to no idea why it’s doing the things it does when I make changes.

This is not a complaint…far from it. I cannot believe the things coming out of the DPO (got that with Maths plus a moddemix) and I love not knowing. I was just curious if some of you seasoned veterans felt this way at first.

1 Like
#1886

I wouldn’t call myself a seasoned veteran but for sure that maths patchbook is very intimidating at first. (if you’re like me) You may never fully understand everything! :wink: But think of it this way - as you learn the patches in there you’re not just learning about the Maths module specifically but also a broad range of modular synthesis techniques (and also, how many other less complex modules might work).

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#1887

the diagrams at the beginning of the patchbook REALLY help you navigate. breaking Maths down into its components makes it easier to understand.

I would just start with one function generator in isolation. hit it with a trigger or gate to use it as an envelope, cycle it as an LFO, patch a CV into it for slew limiting, modulate the time from external CVs, etc.

once you really wrap your brain around how one works, you will naturally think of ways to self-patch with the other side.

getting the mixer involved (for adding external CVs or adding offsets) will introduce even more complex modulations.

the logic is the least intuitive part, but once you have something going on multiple channels it will let you make interrelated variations to modulate other aspects of the patch.

by that point some of the wilder usages will make a lot more sense :slight_smile:

1 Like
#1888

Hell, I’ve had my Maths for years and it’s still an alien life form!

Enjoy the ride!!!

3 Likes
#1889

Do you happen to have a Maths? Would love to know how the envelopes compare to the ones from Maths.

#1890

Yeah, we all felt this way at some point - often with a complex function generator like Maths, but perhaps with other modules.

Learning Maths is like learning storecupboard cooking: it is actually lots of separate ingredients (two function generators, the logic, the attenuverters, and the EOC/EOR outputs). Following a recipe is a great way to make dinner but doesn’t always help you get a feel for cooking with ingredients, or making your own things.

I had a look at the Arcade Trill patch, and whilst it’s not so complex, if you just follow the instructions, you will get a modulation output that is somewhat hard to take apart and ascertain what’s going on. But the directions for building it up will give you some clues. It’s a complex LFO, effectively - an LFO modulating another oscillator. It’s a patch that makes sense from top to bottom : start with hearing what CH4 does on its own, and then have a look at what CH1 is doing when the EOC connection is made but not the BOTH one.

A scope helps a little, but so does your ears. Just get a simple square wave or something coming out of an oscillator, and feed the Math CH1 output into pitch CV: it’s really easy to detect changes in pitch, so this is a good place to start seeing what each layer of ‘seasoning’ is doing. Think about which knobs each stage is ‘turning’ via CV, or what is being shaped at what stage.

4 Likes
#1891

Yeah, the trick here is to realise that it’s a set of related functions in one module: more like a Serge panel. You have two slew limiter based (this is an important realisation) envelopes, two integrators (think LPF), a bank of attenuators and a set of analogue logic functions on the outputs.

These are normalled together so you can end up thinking of it as a single entity. This thinking (inputs->magic->outputs) makes it very hard to reason about. Once you consider it as a set of functions behind a single panel you realise much better how to approach it. Moreover, if it were 6 distinct modules it would be much more obvious why it could do a lot of things it can do (and the potential it has). The number of “special recipes” for it can really add to the confusion.

1 Like
#1892

Comparable in that you can get 2,3,4-stage envelopes (with some creative patching). AFAIK, the Vortex is linear only so (though fast) not as snappy as Maths envelopes.

1 Like
#1893

Thanks @chalkwalk and @simonvanderveldt for your detailed answers. It’s good to know others way of thinking.
I know I have a few things to try in my patching. :grinning:

1 Like
#1895

I’ve got a Make Noise TEMPI for the first time and I’m very confused by the factory settings.
I’ve read in the manual for version tempi60 (the startup button lights show that version) that the factory settings for the clock should be 50% and CH1 tap tempo but my clock edit settings is BLUE (leading tap tempo OFF) after a factory reset.
It’s very confusing since all the YouTube studies are expecting that the pot are for state selection and not tempo (I suppose it was like that in the OG firmware) and the manual contradicts my actual behavior.

What are the clock edit settings supposed to be?

I’ve also found another contradiction in the manual:
On page 10 about the program edit settings it says that button 1 is for 100% human resolution. On page 28 in the tips and tricks it says

If Human Programming and you would like to use only Integer Divisions or Multiples, set Human Resolution to 100% ([PRESS] Button-3 while on Program Edit Page). This will ensure instantly perfect Programming of ‘four on the floor’ beats, or something similar.

I appears that the tips and tricks part is wrong @walker ?

2 Likes
#1896

Thanks everyone for the encouragement and demystification.

One more question and I think I understand what each “ingredient” does in this medley of control:

For channels 1 and 4, the slews: they are in essence emulating the control signal it receives, but with potential edits to the rise and fall points of the signal? Do I understand that correctly?

And one additional question: are waveforms/LFOs only bipolar if the signal allows it? Or are there waves which are unipolar and waves which are bipolar?

#1897

Channels 1 and 4 aren’t emulating the signal, they are passing it through. They use a circuit called a slew limiter, which puts a speed limit on how fast a signal can go up or down.

To let a signal pass through unaffected, set the Rise and Fall times to their lowest (CCW) settings.

If you put in a square wave (see below) and then increase the “Rise” time, Maths will slow down how long it takes the voltage to get from its lowest point to its highest point.

Similarly, if you increase the “Fall” time, it will take longer for the voltage to decrease from its starting point to its final destination. (The diagram below uses the term “low time”, but same difference.)

In the example below you can see both the rising and falling edge are affected. Maths can slew the rising and falling portion individually, which allows you to have portamento only on intervals that are rising OR falling.

At very long Rise or Fall times, you can see how the wave may be slowed down enough that it will never catch up!

8 Likes
#1898

20 characters of Thank you!!

#1899

Just adding that the trigger inputs complicate things a bit - as they cause a full cycle of the rise and fall signal regardless of the length of the trigger or its amplitude.

@xidnpnlss One way to understand how this works is to send a 5v gate signal to the channel 1 input and then unpatch and send it into the trigger input. The resulting envelopes will have a different amplitude (5v vs. 10v) and depending on the length of the gate signal, they will have different shapes as well.

2 Likes
#1900

Good lord. Doing my head in with practical use potential. Thank you! I’ll stop flooding the thread now.

#1901

To put an even finer point on it, when you trigger the trigger input, it causes ~10v to be pumped into to the slew, and those 10v will continue to be pumped into the slew until the EOR goes high. EOR seems to be what shuts off that particular faucet, which is why you can’t interrupt the rise (attack) with a new trigger. Once EOR goes high, the fall commences. If nothing is in the input jack, then the slew is now receiving 0v, so it will head toward 0. However, you can have a separate signal going into the input jack, in which case the slew will fall toward that. EOC won’t go high until the slew somehow makes it back to 0. By manipulating a voltage at input, you can actually make the slew voltage rise again (during the fall phase). Moreover, once you’re in the fall phase, you can retrigger the rise at the trigger jack. Various opportunities for shenanigans in this dance.

9 Likes
#1902

Is there a list of Midi-CV modules that can work with Norns? I know that my FH-1 cannot, but Hermod can. Does anyone know of a Midi-CV module that can use used with Norns but also can accept Midi over 5pn din?