#267

it seems like this discussion kinda gets to the heart of the state of electronic music instrument development and marketing today and I really don’t think there are any easy answers.

the Make Noise thing has been talked to death here, but let’s take a look at Monome as a contrast…

Whereas the 0-ctrl is now a very well understood thing before it has even shipped, norns is (2 years on) still a mysterious object to a lot of people. A lot of that is surely due to the nature of the thing (norns today is significantly more/different than it was in 2018 and defies easy functional explanation), but a lot of it is also clearly a personal choice by @tehn.

is something lost in this? would more people knowing about or understanding norns mean better things (however you define that)? I don’t know.

I have a hard time faulting Make Noise for building a thing they care about and wanting people to know about it. if you build tools for creativity and have the marketing landscape that exists today, you simply try to get people aware of the thing you’ve done. their new standalone form factor was always clearly about making the intimidating nature of eurorack a little more accessible and so education for these tools also feels incredibly valuable, especially since a lot of people might not even understand the limitations and opportunities of an analog sequencer.

leveraging people with dedicated followings who aren’t already, say, followers of Make Noise on any of their channels, is a real way to spread information about the product.

however, what you do get is an highly coordinated flooding of the airwaves with foggy lines between what is being informed by passion and what is being driven by commerce. it’s par for the course in most of the world, especially the musical gear world, but it feels like we’re losing touch with the origins of Make Noise and from some of these youtube creators. so there’s a sense of loss in all this (to me at least).

all to say, I don’t think any of this is simple. if any of these people’s main focus was just making money, I don’t think this is what any of them would be doing. making and introducing a new thing into the world without traveling down existing and somewhat distasteful avenues of communication is hard.

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#268

I don’t have Norns, but I’m very interested in one but to be honest, the fragmented and abstract nature of information is making it harder for me to evaluate how it would fit to my workflow, how I would possibly use it and how I would practically take advantage of the openness. I don’t need dozen youtube influencer reviews, but some kind of rough run-through in video format would be nice. Written manuals and hundreds of forum posts are one thing, and very valuable at that, but without actually having one I have hard time comprehending the actual practical use of the unit. For example loopop style review/walkthrough would be super valuable for me. I rarely look at these review etc. videos for their opinions on is the thing in question any good or worth to buy, but to see it in use, to have the principles explained and shown. If I compare Norns something like Organelle, I feel like I understand the later much better. There’s video content on it from both Critter&Guitari and third parties, plus I can practice Pure Data on my own computer etc. Norns is just this behemoth of alluring, mysterious potential, but if I got one now, I wouldn’t know where to begin.

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#269

Used to think so too until I got norns shield. I think shield is a good and inexpensive way to try if it’s your thing or not. Primarily use it as a quirky delay looper. Don’t have grid yet, though introduction of live processing to cheat codes makes it harder to resist :slight_smile:

1 Like
#270

I can also strongly relate this feeling and behaviour to reading toy catalogues when I was a kid. I could spend hours, days and weeks flipping back and forth through the toy store catalogue, circling in all the toys I want but would never get, fantasising what it would be like to actually hold them in my hands – how much more fun it would be, how much more fulfilled I would feel.

It is funny that you mention that because I had similar experience as a kid. My father traveled few times to UK and each time he would bring me back the toy catalogues. I would do the same as a kid - fantasize how I would play with them etc. never really getting anything (and I can’t blame my parents - teachers wage wasn’t a lot in the 90s especially in Eastern Europe (and unfortunately it still isn’t)) so maybe when grown up I started to compensate a little and buy a lot of shiny gear that I want. Being engineer also doesn’t help because I am genuinely interested in how things work, every gear peculiarities, interface etc.

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#271

@karol i like the cassette/reel to reel videos a lot actually. i find instagram very inspiring. sometimes when i feel stuck like im trying to hard to fit a current work in progress track into a genre or i have a certain idea stuck in my head and can’t break out, ill just scroll my feed. i find a lot of the more creative or experimental artists seem to use instagram (maybe). i love youtube too. if i want to be inspired by a certain piece of gear/workflow/or cool tips, workarounds & tricks for manipulating gear i already have but maybe haven’t fully dove into yet, i will browse youtube.

i don’t know if i agree with the egalitarian attitude of “all art is objectively good” but i was mostly pointing out that the appeal to a certain demographic/likes/fans by using tropes that the creators know will gain attention in an already oversaturated landfill of music posts rather than creating art is regressive and probably will lead to a bad place eventually. just a theory

@n-So exactly

#272

How you determine that what someone created is done just to gather fans and when it is art that they want to create? How you determine that some art is worth of being published and other people art is just a noise and contributes to landfill? Because I think that with such attitude you can basically simplify any art to just an act of getting attention (and I am aware that it possibly somehow contradicts my attitude towards gear related videos :P). And please remember that we are here in a very little niche, most of my friends don’t know anything about tape loops, house plant ambient music (which I personally love :P) etc. so while we can feel that we are surrounded by it it is probably the instagram/yt algorithm that does the work.

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#273

i don’t, it’s just a hypothesis i’m working on. i also do it

#274

I agree with you, this sort of question risks becoming hyperbolic and philosophical to the point of complete paralysis. Isn’t all art a call for attention? Isn’t all art a personal expression of what is inside the artist? Doesn’t all art comprise both a personal and impossible to quantify point of view? Doesn’t all art have a political context?

The act of creation is both personal and public. It is both a manifestation of my personal feelings yet occupies the real world which I don’t truly own any of. So, yeah, we could talk all day about how the private and lock away 4-Track tapes is the sign of a true artist and the SoundCloud promoted after a viral tweet is automatically trash.

Or, we could just put aside the over complicated (and in my view counterproductive) grandstanding/gatekeeping about what art IS and instead look at creations we enjoy and that motivate and inspire us. We can spend all freaking life time wallowing in the pits of this argument over what formats are legit. Many people have! Or we could skip the question of what publication tools represent a real exploration of sound and just say “dang, that sound I found on this BBS board (or instagram, or tumblr or a blank unmarked tape I bought of eBay at 3am) is really cool! Let me hear that again!

4 Likes
#276

I sometimes wish citation would only be allowed in full because I feel like you omitted my next sentence which completely changes the meaning of what I said :stuck_out_tongue: Basically I don’t agree with encephalitislethargi because I personally feel like those questions lead you nowhere and you can basically play down any art going by that reasoning. I believe anything is art as long as someone created it with intention (or sometimes even without it).

1 Like
#277

I don’t know why I read that and didn’t register that comment as it was. I will re-edit it to include your full comment and have my comment be a longer and more pontificating version of your succinctly put point. :grimacing:

Thanks to the edit key, it’s now public ally appears as if I didnt just fail reading comprehension! :wink:

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#278

I can really relate to this and I’ve also made the same decision regarding new gear in 2020. The reality is, I have more than enough equipment for my needs (verging on too much). Eurorack is an especially tricky area; even though I’m not expanding my system any more there is always a tendency to trade things out in order to optimize or squeeze in an extra function. It definitely triggers the obsessive and compulsive part of my brain, which in turn triggers all kinds of negative emotions.

Watching videos about gear I already own is a bit of a mixed bag; it’s great for discovering new tricks etc. but it will often lead to clicking on a recommended video for another piece of gear that I don’t own.

Basically, looking at new gear on the internet generally ends up making me feel terrible, whereas actually making music generally makes me feel good.

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#279

I am not worried about GAS I am no stranger to using consumerism to fill the void. I use to have an amazon problem. Luckily I have gotten better over the years and can control it better.

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#280

The pandemic has cured my gas. I don’t want to deal with deliverymen; certainly don’t want to have to go to the PO if I miss my delivery. Don’t want contaminated packages. Concerned about future financial security. I have enough instruments.

I did buy a one-string phonofiddle though, because they only come up on eBay every couple of years and I couldn’t let this one pass.

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#281

:joy: that’s funny! …“The pandemic cured my GAS, I did buy a one-string phonofiddle though”

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#282

‚Ello
I found it really inspiring to upgrade my New Pamela, looking for a way to upgrade the Mother32 (still no cure for my non-existing sysex workaround) and waiting for a huge MPC upgrade next week. Also the upgrades on the OP-Z have brought a lot of joy since i bought it. Fixing a DIY Thonk module with Steve via emails made me a confident DIYer in a pandemic as well. These are all sustainable little workhorses that get me up and rearrange my setup or workflow. I think my producing mind needs to be assured that a new toy will bring sustainability into play as i‘ve stopped acquiring stuff that does not match this mindset. This is something i realised in retrospect.
Also in retrospect, i‘m relieved that i could stop watching these gazilion synthfluencer vids on youtube 2 years ago and just move on-this is like talking from an addicts POV, i might fall back into it anytime. And i agree that we need new synthfluencer blood to make me fall back in…a lot of it just bored the hell out of me over time. As does the Insta-patch-vids that i fanatically adored the last couple of years-they become annoying and i can now tell myself ‚oh, its becoming toxic-lets stop‘

The best in todays musicproducing gear is the availability at all times and ‚moderate‘ pricing. (in comparison to the 9ties :smiley:)
The worst is its sheer amount of cool ideas/toys and this definitely needs curation imo.

Its highly questionable that we‘ve found the best way yet to have all this sorted out for good-it will always fluctuate from perfect to cringeworthy.
When i get stuck in this dilemma i‘ll put some music on that i love and get inspired to maybe do something along that line? This will always override my GAS!

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#283

This video by @mattlowery helped me understand the workflow on Norns enough to actually go ahead and build a Shield.

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#284

Interesting discussion here guys. I’d like to offer the perspective of a professional musician/composer whose work is being lost in the “noise” of information. I thought like many others to follow the steps of the famous YouTubers in our scene, you start with small inspirational video’s and you grow your audience, where you can actually sell your music later on. It takes time and careful planning and hard work. There’s a moment where you hit unprecedented viewing numbers and you get contacted to do promo video’s and get sponsored by certain (well respected) companies in the scene. What do you do? The danger is that your early fans who were inspired by your video’s are probably going to turn their back on you, cause you’ve sold out and your video’s are becoming less and less interesting for them? It’s tough decisions guys, but some people choose to grow the numbers and accept carefully the right invitations, but it’s a natural consequence that not all will be happy. For me personally: I wish there was a better way to show my music out there, without having to become some kind of niche celebrity on YouTube. I have a lot of experience, knowledge and my music is of high quality. But who cares? If anyone can patch cables, anyone can be on youtube, anyone can be on spotify. What’s the point?

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#285

For me the point is first and only to find joy and inspiration in learning, sharing and discovering, which by definition cannot ever end… EDIT: All of which are profoundly enhanced by the time I spend on Lines, of course :pray:t2:

Any other concerns of money, fame, worldly success, are just distractions…

But I am lucky that my livelihood has nothing to do with my musical life… If it did, I would be miserable…

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#286

That makes me so happy to hear! And welcome to the norniverse!

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#287

If an alcoholic cut back from from three bottles of vodka to one beer, wouldn’t that be cause for celebration? Let me have my little win, brother!

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