#48
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#49

Frankly I am not aware of how automata has been used in music, this is just based on the simple definition of DFAs and NFAs. You could certainly extend them, for example by associating a musical output value to each state.

I find this to be a very interesting question in generative art. This also ties in with the Is it enough? thread, and in general, the topic of «is X cheating?». Part of me knows it doesn’t make sense to discard some composition method in virtue of narrow definition of what a «true» composer. Part of me is also unsatisfied when I see that my actions have a limited impact on the output (which really isn’t quite true if I am the one defining the system). Some systems also seem to give more control to the performer than others. I am guessing that coming to enjoy generative systems is a combination of the right mindset and the right system.

What are your thoughts on intent in generative art?

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#50

C&G have a few fun Cellular Automata patches:

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#51

Check out David Burraston (aka Noyzelab)'s work:


http://noyzelab.com/research/Burraston-HCI.pdf

Also, Bill Vorn’s old Max externals, which I’m pretty sure don’t work anymore, but still (I wish they did):
http://billvorn.concordia.ca/research/software/lifetools.html

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#52

upon re-reading your post i think we were talking about 2 different things, and i responded to just one specific point you made which i understood as automata being useful for analyzing a language but not generating it. i guess there could be many ways to use automata to generate something, whether it’s the state itself or the transitions taken or some byproduct of transitions etc.

so many different aspects (as evidenced by the linked threads), so i’ll just touch on this: as somebody who now realizes i crippled my music output by having the impostor syndrome for many years i am much less concerned about just how much my personal intent went into creating art.

if i created a generative system that is completely automatic with no user input, does it reflect my intent? of course it does! what if i created it by accident, just by implementing an automaton with some random rules? i still participated by recognizing something in its output that spoke to me and helping with shaping it into a coherent piece (or maybe consciously NOT getting in the way of what it produces). or if i create a guitar piece, how much of it was my intent and how much of it was shaped by the techniques the instrument itself suggests? (there is also an interesting aspect of similarities between what we define as an instrument and what we define as a generative system).

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#53

@simondemeule Xenakis did some great early work with musical automata. As one example, Horos is amazing… you can really hear when the automata spring into action (in my opinion):

I found a nice paper a month or so back that analyzes his use of automata:

cicm.mshparisnord.org/ColloqueXenakis/papers/Solomos.pdf

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#54

One other reference I forgot to mention… for a very (very) thorough discussion of L-systems in music, see the dissertation of Luke Dubois “Applications of Generative String-Substitution Systems in Computer Music”:

http://sites.bxmc.poly.edu/~lukedubois/dissertation/dissertation.pdf

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#55

Thank you! I’ll look into it!

#56

We were indeed talking about different flavours of automata.

On the topic of intent, I wholeheartedly agree and can absolutely relate to your experience. I am slowly learning to accept my own art.

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#57

How Generative Music Works. A fantastic interactive audio experience in your browser. Best use a computer to explore this:
https://teropa.info/loop/#/title

Love it like I do and share it with friends.

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#58

Inspired by @lijnenspel generated conference talk (https://github.com/jellea/20-minutes-for-a-clojure-speaker) I decided to use similiar generator to generate compositions based on Sometimes [harmony series no. 1] by Michael Pisaro and I think that text based compositions might be a very nice subject for “generative” treatment.
The live demo is here:
http://firmanty.com/harmony/ - on every refresh new composition is generated. You can also click “Start playing” to hear it played by simple sine tones, but I need to debug it because it doesn’t currently work on Safari (Firefox and Chrome plays fine).
And if somebody would like to mess with code (which is rather hacky as I wrote this today):
https://github.com/kfirmanty/harmony-series-no-1-generator
I enjoyed writing this small generator so if anyone knows of any text based compositions which would be a good basis for similiar generator please let me know.

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#59

Anyone know if there is any concrete difference between algorithmic and generative music? Are these terms interchangeable?

#60

I have a habit of using them interchangeably, but I suppose the difference might be that “algorithmic” might be “always repeatable” and generative might mean “unique every time”. But then again, I’m certainly not strict about those notions in my use of the words.

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#61

I think the term “generative” came in a next historical phase of the term “algorithmic” from different group of people and from different artistic contexts.

From one hand, used by artist willing to differentiate from the more scientific/institutional/avandguard framework (here comes the popularization of Brian Eno’s usage of Koan Pro etc).

On the other hand, “generative” is used as part of algorithmic processes related with artificial life (cellular automata, genetic algorithms, L-systems, autonomous agents and self oranization). It describes various systems that involve some kind of feedback in order to produce the evolution of the form/material of the work of art.

after their broad and vague usage, the terms seems to converge.

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Cybernetic Music/Roland Kayn/Feedback Systems/AI
#62

Thanks @vals and @jasonw22, that’s roughly what I thought. I also read that generative came about around Eno / Koan time, so perhaps differentiating between academic and product areas was the reason…

#63

The term generative is also used in ecology.

#64

This is a vague and obnoxious quest so I apologize if this feels pretentious or esoteric, or I’m in the wrong category. I also know the term “generative” means something different to everyone. Let’s discuss!

I’ve been drawn to things like modular in part for their potential for slowly evolving, generative ambient music. I’m wondering how the phrase “generative ambient” might extend to other areas of my life.

Maybe for example, I’ve been enjoying the iOS app Viridi for how low-maintenance it truly is, while I find most apps in the relaxation or idle categories still too slot-machine game-ified.

(I also have real succulents and a cat in this category, ha.)

Many twitterbots fit this description for me—for example, I created one simulating Conway’s Game of Life at 1 “generation”/hour (It got stuck in an interesting loop years ago, and I left it because I thought that was neat in its own way.)

I’ve even been fermenting ginger beer, and realized this also fits my description, maybe best: something simple that takes preparation, and then develops, noticeably but slowly, only with time.

I know this isn’t a unique sensation: I crave digital objects, things almost like screensavers, yet that take the littlest bit of cultivation. I’m not sure how to search for them, so I’m trying to crowdsource here.

Mold simulations? Pet cellular automata? Aquariums? Bonsai? I open to all sorts of low-maintenance tending that may appeal to llllllllines folks.

(During a pandemic here in the States, these things feel especially moving.)

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#65

https://llllllll.co/t/plants-gardening-etc/10129?u=jasonw22

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#66

I find the concepts that you’re describing super compelling but I don’t have any specific term or familiarity with a particular area of knowledge/discipline that encompasses what you’re describing. Terms that come to mind are “erosion/accretion process” and “meditative growth” even though I just came up with them.

The Rudy Rucker excerpt on gnarl being between predictable and random covers the spatial domain. I imagine that there’s some calculus to describe the function of gradual change over time with a low density temporal/spatial input and a slow changing temporal/spatial output.

My brain is pretty shot right now so take what I said as stream of consciousness word soup. Maybe I don’t know what I’m trying to say, but this is relevant to my interests and I would subscribe to your newsletter.

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#67

A serious undertaking that could have benefited from an editor.

A more accessible and groovy take on the same subject

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