@TomWhitwell’s new Startup schematic just reminded me of the Cmoy headphone amp. Posting here for reference: https://tangentsoft.net/audio/cmoy/

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Hi there!

Wanted to chime in regarding front panels - Front Panel Express is very high quality and user friendly but the panels can get quite expensive at quantities in the 1-20 range ($40-70 per panel!). An alternative low cost (~$5-10 per panel) option is using a PCB manufacturer that offers aluminum boards. I’ve been using pcbway, I am really pleased with the results since I’m an aspiring hardware manufacturer selling items in the dozen’s range, I can’t afford to front the $$ for 100 panels for bulk discount : (

Here are some photos of a couple tests I made on different colored aluminum panels, ‘matte black’, ‘no soldermask’, and ‘purple’. The last photo is a picture of one of my midi controllers, I used the matte black option.

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I’ve recently been wondering how velocity/pressure sensitive button grids are made. Would they use Hall effect sensors, or just multiplex (?) lots of force-sensitive resistors together?

Haken Continuum uses Hall effect sensors. Linnstrument and Seaboard are giant FSRs. Push and Launchpad Pro are multiplexed FSRs.

I bet @randy could give a more detailed/accurate answer.

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(summoned) I gave a short overview of some of the different technologies used in surface pressure sensors in my Master’s thesis: https://madronalabs.com/media/randy/RandallJones_MSc_FINAL2.pdf.

The thesis also gives a description of the Soundplane sensor sufficient for making and tinkering with a prototype. It works by capacitive coupling between conductive rows and columns, measured using AC signals in the 10-40kHz range. Unlike an FSR solution, it measures actual position. The Soundplane sensors are hand-built here and will continue to be.

A very interesting idea was used in the Tactex MTC Express, which was briefly a commercial product in 2000 or so. It sent light from LEDs through fiber optic cables and measured the flex in the cables as a function of the light transmission.

I’m not aware of any really new approaches in the past few years in terms of sensor technology.

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Does anybody have a more accurate description for the Linnstrument and Seaboard than “big FSR”? I think it’s more likely some kind of matrix in order to get position, but I’m not totally clear.

Here’s a “teardown” of a Seaboard (of sorts):

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It would seem that a grid of small non-pressure sensitive elements could be used to sense things like overall pressure, velocity, even press direction. Basically the greater the pressure, the greater number of grid elements register as pressed. The shape of the grid “image” might also indicate something about direction, the overall “movie” of grid images something about velocity and so on. There’s probably some opportunity for ML techniques here, though simple/analog methods could also go a long way.

(Obviously I haven’t worked at all in this area, so this idea may already be covered by one of the previously mentioned approaches. Or there could be impracticalities regarding costs, latency, value saturation, so that the entire idea is silly. Above all any latency should be avoided.)

Yeah, you just described a capacitive approach, which is what you see in touchplates such as the one used on the Arturia Microfreak. It works, but I guess I’d see more expressive potential in FSRs or more advanced sensors (Hall effect, etc).

Never used the Arturia stuff, but apparently the capacitive grid is the technology behind touchscreens, which are as uninspiring as could possibly be.

I also tried but failed to find any research on sensing touch direction and rotation (which I guess reduces to direction, as a change in direction) – which was my initial impetus for thinking of grid techniques which could at least indirectly measure forces parallel as well as perpendicular to the touchplane, via the finger blob shape.

Of course – you can get those as well from position trajectories… but I don’t know if the measurement would be as accurate, and there are plenty of cases where one may want to press in various directions, or just swirl one’s finger around without actually moving it.

Even a collection of three “perpendicular” sensors (probably a fourth for redundancy) per position could be used to infer these parallel forces and their directions.

Also – there’s the issue of the feedback – rather than taking the somewhat detached and heavy-handed step of “estimating” direction, force, position, rotation etc – higher-level determinations that will invariably result in glitches (and perhaps latency if DSP techniques are required) – is there something simpler and more reliable, more low-level that could be used as a control. I’d think here the second-order (elliptical) moments of the finger blob – or some kind of mixture-Gaussian fit for multitouch – could be very interesting to work with here. Hence why I keep thinking of grids of some sort.

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Yeah, I think you need a grid. But I think you can use sensors that are much more direct in terms of providing measurements for expressive movements, that don’t require so much algorithmic interpretation.

I really want to experiment with Hall effect sensors. By all accounts, the Haken Continuum is described as the most “sensitive” expressive digital controller currently commercially available.

https://www.hakenaudio.com/Continuum/hakenaudioovervf.html

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What is the simplest circuit I could build to get +5 and -5 out of two jacks? Advice welcome.

As in; two jack patch cables, one with +5 and one with -5 on tip?

Maybe have a look at the Mutable Shades schematic (bottom left): https://mutable-instruments.net/modules/shades/downloads/shades_v30.pdf

It uses the LM4040 precision voltage reference instead of a zener diode (the ‘traditional way’ of getting a low current voltage reference). The LM4040 is also available for 5V. This would make sure your +5V reference, is +5V and not ‘close enough’.

Note the references voltages on the Mutable Shades are also buffered which helps avoid any loading problems.

As per all Mutable designs, it is a very neat, and effective circuit to derive these reference voltages from the Eurorack +12/-12V supply.

I think you should be able to use this circuit for your 5V and -5V (put the LM4040 the other way round for your -5V ref sourced from the -12V supply).

You could even do as per the Mutable Shades, and have pins on the back of your board to select between 10/5V and -10/-5V reference.

Hope this helps :+1:

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Yep!

Right now I’m actually using my Shades to make these voltages. I’m using them as offsets, and it feels like a waste of Shades.

A good reference though. I’ll look into that direction.

Maybe a stupid question: But is there a good reason not to just use the 5v rail from the power supply? :thinking:

depends if you want “around about 5V” or “actually 5V”. The 4040 precision voltage reference will give you precisely 5V. The 5V line from your PSU regulator will give you what I’d call “basically 5V” apart from when it doesn’t. It might ripple around, esp if lots of things are drawing on it. At the very least, generating your own 5V from a 12V input into a regulator would be a start, but the LM4040 will beat a 7805 for precision.

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I think this is the correct topic for this question, not entirely sure to be honest :x

Does anyone know what the normal/default way is of protecting outputs in Eurorack modules from someone plugging in another output?
Does this depend on the circuit of the module or is there a generic thing that can be placed in front of an output to do this?

In case it’s specific to the circuit/components in question: I’m mainly looking at the output of an opamp, AFAIK directly plugging in another output will fry the opamp in pretty much all cases so it would need some form of protection. What would be the correct circuit to do so?

I did find the following in this mw topic

In my experience, TL07X opamps will survive reverse power, briefly (although they’ll get very hot). However, 2164 VCAs will die instantly. I’ve fried quite a few this way. There is a way to prevent it, though: connect a Schottky diode between ground and -V. This seems to protect the 2164 (thanks to Neil Johnson and Oscar Salas for figuring this out, at the cost of several precious SSM2164s). I do this on all my boards, now, and we do it on the Intellijel modules as well.

that mw quote seems to be talking about protection against polarity reversal.

someone please correct me, but i thought an op-amp output with a resistor (1k) is sufficient protection.

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As @tehn mentioned, that thread is about reverse polarity, for example if a person plugs their power connector in the wrong way, swapping +12 for -12. Using a 1k resistor on the output is common, but it does depend a bit on the circuit because that method can be problematic for modules that generate CV intended to control pitch, as the voltage may vary slightly depending on the module it is plugged into. See for example the discussion: https://forum.mutable-instruments.net/t/modules-without-protection-resistor/8443/4

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Ah, yeah, you’re both right, I didn’t pay enough attention. Still useful info of course :slight_smile:

Thank you both for the 1k resistor pointer.

Thanks for the link! I’ll have a read through it and see what I can learn :slight_smile:

Those of you who do front panel designs with Adobe Illustrator, what do you do with the files after you’re done? It seems that front panel express and others don’t work with that format.