#175

To be honest I’m trying to keep the case as is. I do have a 12hp matrix module on the way, mostly because it was cheap, but I find that having three 2hp mixers makes up for the lack of a decent matrix mixer module. Plus I have more inputs per output. Granted, the small knobs aren’t ideal, but so far I don’t mind them. I’d be hard pressed to perform using the feedback on the mixing side - and for that I prefer the small knobs, they are far more difficult to knock out of position during a performance.

So far I’ve had the best results using saw and vowels indeed!

To be honest, my initial idea was to use it for enhancement. Listen to how Colin Stetson utilizes the thumping of the saxophone valves to add percussive elements on his tracks. But lately, I have the 2hp there to use as an exciter, to fake some parts of the sound I can’t get without expanding too much (re: “spit” or attack on trumpet is a good example), or maybe even grab the sustained part as a sample and work with that? I don’t know what the smallest size of of sample I can use on the Play module but I’m hoping it’s doable.

The book describes areas of a sample (in terms of size etc) which would be useful when trying to sample each instrument. On the trumpet for example it suggests getting four samples per octave (re: every three semitones).

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#176

That’s a good point. :+1:

I found myself moving my 2hp Trim – which I had originally planned to just set aside – next to my new Filter 8. I love that filter, but the one thing it was missing was attenuation for its two inputs. I haven’t yet thought about applications of mixing the outputs though.

#177

I went with your advice yesterday. No specific patch or audio path in mind, I just patched as I saw fit, adding the Comb module in the feedback path of the CG Delay. You are absolutely right - the Comb module is marketed as a Comb filter or a short Delay line, both of which are correct, but I found that it makes for an excellent resonant space for other things to exist in.

Obviously these are no breaking news, but I’ve never conceptualized short Delays as larger resonant spaces, only as smaller resonant bodies. It seems the Comb is ideal for such a use, with just three parameters, it’s super easy to dial things in without too much fuss.

I’m having trouble finding how to properly use the Resonant EQ to recreate instrument bodies. I’m hoping that the book will have some information on the bands that get accented by the body of each instrument. But I’m wondering whether something like the new ADDAC603 Triple Band Pass filter is better suited to such a task since the frequencies of the bands aren’t static.

Also, general question: do you use DC offsets when modeling bowed string sounds or is it just for plucked strings?

#178

Oh yeah, delays are great for creating a sense of physical space, and tend to do so without crowding a mix the way reverbs can. I use both in my mixing, but if there’s a lot of sounds competing for attention I’ll use panned delays instead of reverb.

I’ve never really looked into the actual frequencies that various instrument bodies resonate at, but I use Three Sisters for that most of the time, and just dial in the settings until it sounds right. You want your filter bands’ resonance pushed just a little lower than if you wanted to ping them, so you’re almost hearing it ring out on its own when the sound goes through. Another thing that I’ve found works well is another short delay with a very low low-pass on it, so the CG Products one might be good to try that with. And using convolution is really easy and sounds excellent for this.

I haven’t found a good way to get a bowed string via the usual physical modeling patch-ways myself, so no DC offset for me there. Lately I’ve really liked the sound of one oscillator that’s both synced to, and FM’ed by, another and then sent through a low-pass if I want a nice bowed string.

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#179

Had an incredible experience with the DLD last night just doing simple Karplus stuff. d0 has spoiled me somewhat with the ability to adjust the slew rate (DLD made some pretty funky honks when changing pitch radically), but DLD really has a flexible architecture with extensive settings available. The built-in saturation keeps things sounding pretty nice, even when it was honking :smile: I’m surprised to see that audio rate DLD is not much discussed or demoed online!

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#180

Ok, so, stupid question for the experts. I run into a solution for a patch problem I’ve been mulling over (re: rate of change) so I want to conjure up a small case that will do bowed instrument sounds. I’m going to cut corners by using Braids (I know, shame!) and my question is: if you had to choose between the 2hp LPF and the 2hp Comb filter, which one do you think would be more suited as a body filter for a stringed instrument?

I’m assuming Comb, but I’d appreciate your opinion. Can’t find anything else in 2-4hp to suit the task but I’m all ears. Maybe the Ladik F-110, which is a fixed filterbank would be ok? Or does it have to be resonant?

Yes, I don’t like gear questions either, but this is physical modeling so please pretend it isn’t one. :wink:

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Cold Mac Ideas
#181

I think you’d want a LPF and a short delay to pair with it. Any chance you can fit two 2hp modules in the setup?

And, funnily enough, I’m working on the same idea of an instrument that does bowed string sounds! I’m currently trying to come up with a way to patch a rate of change detector in the least possible hp so I’d love to hear how you’re approaching it. I actually reached out to Sandrine from SDS to see if she’d be interested in producing a controller module that does it all behind one panel but that’s probably a long shot.

So far I’ve been able to fit the pieces I’d need into 14hp which isn’t too bad. The lightstrip would be to control amplitude, and a ribbon controller along the bottom would be for the pitch:

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#182

@smbols amazing how we think alike! I’m patching the rate of change more or less the same way, ASR and Min/Max to grab the change of “bow” values. :star_struck:

My take has broken the ASR part into 2 x S&H and a Trigger Delay as I happen to have all the necessary elements to make this patch into reality. I also like the idea of messing around with the delay times and experiment with the values. The Derivator ought to come in handy, although I’m thinking I might need an Envelope somewhere there to take advantage of its outputs.

I’m going to try both the Comb and the LPF, see how that works as a body. I’m not holding my breath for Braids as the source of the sound, but you never know. I really wish there was a small IR module out there, to plug an SD card with the IR of a violin and be done with it.

One slider is for the bow and one is for the pitch. Not sure if utilizing rate-of-change for the volume will work nicely; I doubt it. Which means I still haven’t covered the volume control … :thinking:

Sandrine (from SDS) is on vacation but I’m sure she’ll answer at some point. I reached out to ADDAC for a Rate-of-change module. I can also talk to Sandrine and ask.

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#183

That looks great! The Comb LPF combo should be pretty good for a resonant body. One thing you could try if you want to go for convolution is adding a small I/O module and pairing this with a Logidy EPSi. Wouldn’t be as compact obviously, but that thing sounds excellent and can store a ton of IR’s.

I posted a video over in the Synthesizing Control Schemes thread yesterday of using a rate-of-change patch to control the volume of an oscillator and it actually does work really well. Very natural sounding response once you get the timing of the ASR right, and it feels good too.

If we can get someone to put a module that does this together that would be so awsesome! It’s weird that there isn’t one out there already, given how long velocity sensors have been a staple of synthesizers, and you could do so much with it if it weren’t tied to a keybed. I’m going to experiment with the patch more this weekend and see what I can get by feeding different signals into the ROC sensor. I bet it would spit out some really funky stuff if you’re feeding it complex envelopes or slewed random.

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#184

thanks @smbols for mentioning the synthesizing control schemes thread, i did not see that.
really great example of the rate of change patch. i have to try that too!
@ParanormalPatroler braids already has a bowed string sound patch, right? is it any good sounding?

i wonder if something like this Spectral Interpolation Synthesis
https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~music/sis/index.html
is possible with a hardware wavetable module… i’m currently experimenting with a reaktor ensemble based on that synthesis technique, all you need is just thousands of single cycle waveforms :slight_smile:

#185

RE: instrument body convolution, I did some searching and this little doohickey (meant for cab sim pedals) looks ripe for experimentation. Some gain staging is really all it needs!

image
image.jpg800×800 159 KB

I was pondering making the attempt but then I remembered my ER-301 has convolution :laughing:

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#186

I just realized an alternate route you could take with this. Instead of having the clock, trigger delay, s&h, derivator, comb filter, and LPF, you could just put your D0 in there. Since it’s got two channels you can just use one (along with a stack cable) as your shift register and the other as the delay in your body sim, with 6 hp to spare for your LPF and anything else that might be useful.

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#187

I ended up filling a 6u 84hp case based around this idea. I kept the d0 in the other physical modeling case and used the 1022 on this. Haven’t tried the Comb yet but I’m sure it will be nice as well. As you’d expect the Serge Resonant EQ makes all the difference in the world as a violin body. I did not research the properties, I went by ear.

A few points worth mentioning :

  1. The Ladik Min/Max doesn’t work for this patch. The fact that it has a controllable midpoint ruins it. I used the Doepfer a172 instead.
  2. Using negative feedback for hollow sound brought more realism to the body patch.
  3. A slew limiter is necessary on the RoC output. That or I didn’t balance it right in the first place.
  4. Get a Ladik Derivator. Honestly. Being able tk distinguish between upwards and downwards bow movement is crucial! (see next point)
  5. Utilize FM input on your oscillator for realism. I plugged a mix of the Derivator’s upward gate (through an attenuverter) and the RoC output (through another attenuverter) and into the FM input on Braids. This gave me two important aspects on the patch: a slight vibrato in the initial bow movement and the amazing ability to jump intervals when bowing upwards! Very easy bariolage sound and changing the attenuverter changes the interval. Try it!
  6. I plugged the attenuverted pitch control to the RoC’s clock rate. It did make a difference weirdly enough. I assume different pitches shouldn’t have the same level of bow pressure.

@kilchhofer braids doesn’t sound good but I haven’t explored it as much yet. I have two in this case so I’ll try some combos and let you know. It does cut a lot of corners and adding a body filter makes a huge difference. I didn’t reach your violin realism (re: the example with the IR) and I’m curious what your patch was soundwise. Right now I’m inclined to say that 50% of instrument sound realism is patch playability

@smbols Do you use the RoC on your VCA or is your levels a separate parameter? I plugged the Derivator’s movement gate out to an AD and then to the VCA but I got an annoying click on the attack. Haven’t been able to solve this but I do like the idea of only getting a sound when bowing. I didn’t like the RoC on its own, too jumpy. I’m considering a slew limiter that only slews the upward movement. Where do you utilise the RoC output?

In case you wanna know here is the current case. I had the ingredients laying around so why not?

PS: based on this thread I sometimes think we should have a yearly Modular Physical Modeling conference! :blush:

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#188

Also, an HPF is a first derivative, right? I assume it could be used as a RoC…? No? I need to test this.

#189

sounds very interesting, i want to hear some examples with that case!

bowed string sounds are imo the hardest sounds to mimic accurately, or even to get a decent result that doesn’t sound “cheap”. i guess it’s because the bow itself does so much fine distortions and this results in so many overtones and “noise” like artefacts… in real physical modelling the modelling of the bow and bow movement is probably almost as important as the string and body…

and the string example with the violin ir was just a raw piston honda mkII wave, which is gritty and wobbly which helped quite a bit.

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#190

@kilchhofer So just a raw wave? Damn, that IR makes a huge difference then. But your playing also does make it sound good. What would you use for the bow modeling?

You are right, I should’ve recorded the patch, but the house situation is really bad right now and I couldn’t. I’m fairly sure I will be able to improve on the patch with the extensions I made. I’m hoping the points above are still useful regardless.

#191

some slight filtering after the oscillator, pressure opens the filter. i don’t think it’s a good example for this, i didn’t try to model a string, i just wanted to try the c0 as body filter.
i don’t know how to model the bow, when i look at serenade, an amazing ensemble which models violins and violas then it’s clear that sensitivity of bow movement has a big effect on sound, so this RoC patch definitely comes in handy. faster movement and more pressure increases volume, brightness but also noise and friction which then results in these scratching sounds and lots of inharmonic overtones. i guess these “artefacts” then all go through the modelled string. so far i haven’t found a way to mimic a bowed string in modular, that’s why i think an oscillator is still the best option. a delay line alone is not enough, it works for karplus strong but that’s just not really good sounding for soft attack sounds.

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#192

Yes, I’m using the ROC to open a low pass gate. It could be different because I’m using the D0 rather than a shift register, so the voltage is rising and falling as smoothly as I’m twisting the knob on Frames.

And I actually found the same thing as you with the derivator used to change intervals! I’m using the Rise output of my Sin Phi Miasma, and I sent it to a quantizer tuned to send out root note and 5th, so that on upbows and downbows mimic alternating between strings.

Recorded this bit yesterday of some violin and cello sounds using the technique. I had a bit too much resonance on 3 Sisters so it rings out a bit unnaturally at times, but I’m really happy with how close I’m getting, especially with the cello sounds in the later half. Controlling the pitch by just sweeping the fine tune knob on a Dixie, which is syncing and FMing my Lifeforms Oscillator which is the one you’re actually hearing.

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#193

that’s really cool!! do you have a filter after the osc for normal filtering job or just the 3sisters for the body? i wonder if you could add a filter inbetween where you control the cutoff amount with the roc and the signal being the output of the filter itself, so slight self fm for brightness. at least that’s what i would do when listening to the recording. anyway, cool thread as always, great experiments and knowledge here!

#194

It’s filtered by the 6db channel of an LxD, so it gets brighter as it gets louder. One thing I need to find a fix for is that it gets too bright at maximum velocity and sounds unnatural, so I need some way to clamp the voltage from going beyond a certain point.

I’ll have to try out the self-fm at higher speeds. But what I’m planning on doing is getting a Soundmachines Lightplane for this.

Using the Y axis to open my LPG.

Using the pressure output to distort the waveform in some way (maybe self FM) that mimics pressing harder on a real string, slightly change the pitch to mimic the effect on tension, and shorten the delay time on the D0 so it responds to movements quicker, since faster bowing often means higher pressure.

Then sending the X axis output to alter the body filter, and try to get it to behave like bowing different parts of the string, how you get more hollow tones towards the top and brighter, thinner tones towards the bridge.

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