Good transformers do this too when driven.
What i meant was using the room samples within the waldorf as a layer of a patch.
I did this with attack sounds but the response woukd rather mirror the release.

Debating now if i really need a MM. have a echo matic pcb wich is intended for tape delay on real tape and has sth like a feedback circuit with blend. I suppose while not for seceral sources at once, this gives me actually the needed functionality as a FB loop.

Iam in theory this much bc i am working on a combined instrument case rather small wich should hold everything i need and its still planing time.

I was messing around this morning trying to emulate the classic “mangrove > sisters bass clarinet” patch with more accessible modules, and was pleasantly surprised with the result:

patch notes:

  • STO with slight LFOs to linear FM and shape
  • xaoc belgrad highpass/lowpass, slightly modulated by white noise
  • vactrol lpg
  • spring reverb
    that’s it!

any ideas on how to get multiphonics without a slope-based oscillator? :thinking:

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Maybe a little bit of amplitude modulation from a synced VCO while modulating that VCO’s pitch?

or try VC clock divider tricks for undertones

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Sounds great! Can you point me toward patch notes or recordings of the motivating mangrove + 3 sisters bass clarinet sound?

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Thanks!! I didn’t have a specific recording in mind, but it’s like this:

  • mangrove
  • sisters ALL/FORMANT or CENTER/CROSSOVER, modulated by white noise
  • low pass gate
  • spring reverb optional

one can omit the low pass gate and send the envelope to mangrove AIR instead if you like. In any case, the key is to not have your resonant bandpass filter(s) track your oscillator pitch. noise modulation also gives you that high-frequency fluff

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Did you end up building the fricko modules? if so, any thoughts on them?

edit: for a more general comment/question

with a d0 now en route to me (should arrive tomorrow!) I just finished rereading this wonderful thread. I’ve been a bit undirected with my eurorack system for a bit, and I don’t find it currently gels that well with me. This thread is motivating me to transition it over to be physical modelling focused/capable and while I have some of the building blocks, I also have some questions for all you PM wizards, witches, and conjurors.

Is anyone using the fricko modules? They look super interesting for PM.

What are your opinions on the utility of a fixed (non-resonant) filter bank like the fumana or verbos bark filter for PM? I’ve been itching for an excuse (and the hp) for a fumana for a while…

Is anyone here still using a rossum morpheus for PM? I read the limitations that people mentioned earlier (can’t design your own cubes etc), but it still seems like a powerful pm resource.

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I have some Fricko modules, they are pretty nice. Which one do you have in mind?

I can’t recommend the Resonant EQ enough for PM. But I have no experience with the Fumana. Filter banks are very useful, especially if they’re resonant.

The Morpheus is not so much a filter as much as a convolution/filter crossover. Like all filters, it should be seen as a body where a sound lives in. If you look at the list of filters, you know it can and ought to be used for PM.

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This might be of interest to you - a modified firmware for Rings which adds in the Elements physical modelling modes.

The link is for both Plaits and Rings.

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thanks for chiming in. I appreciate the viewpoint and thoughts on the filters. I had and sold a ResEQ which I didn’t love, but I can see why it would be so useful for PM.

many of the Fricko modules look quite interesting. I’m most intrigued by the blip, shell, rasp, and splice. If/when I get a wind controller, I’ll like want to get a blat

this video got me interested in the blip:

this one in the rasp:

and this one in the splice:

Fricko’s writeups on the design and motivation are great too, and full of PM tips. For example, from the splice page:

Splice lets you combine the higher harmonics from one wave and the lower harmonics from another … This “reverse crossover” brings to your rack an important characteristic of many physical instruments … which is that the physics of the higher frequencies can operate according to completely different rules to the physics of the low notes. For example, in reed wind instruments (like the clarinet and sax), the lower frequency waves push into the first open key and do not significantly go through the rest of the tube (thus forming the note), while higher frequencies can progress down the tube.

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great demos!
( OT: i do wonder however why oh why do people bury their sound in massive bland reverbs where the detail of the patch gets lost and everything blurs into a undefined cloud?)

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Couple of questions…How is the vactrol LPG functioning in this patch? And the buzz in the recording, what is causing that? Also, awesome patch! Thanks for sharing.

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If you’re talking about the whine/buzz on top o everything, that’s just the spring reverb picking up power and mains noise.

The lpg is controlling dynamics between the filter and the reverb :slight_smile:

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I’ve been getting really, really into physical modelling with my eurorack. The results are often dissatisfying, mystifying or otherwise confounding, hence why I love it. I think with other patching styles I rarely had a specific goal in mind (don’t get me wrong, I love aimless patching), but saying something like “today I’m going to make a cello-feeling instrument” has really lit a fire in me. I feel so involved in the process! For the first time, I really feel like I’m doing synthesis in the same way someone might do alchemy (or magic [or science]). Reading through this thread and listening to the examples people have posted was really the inciting incident for this new obsession, and has been a huge help in wrapping my head around /waves hands/ all this. So thanks!

Yesterday I spent the entire afternoon trying to coax a bowed string-feeling patch out of my rack. I’m pretty chuffed with the results, so I thought I would share a recording and a detailed patch breakdown. I’m going to refer to modules generically in the breakdown a la namelessness, but I’ll include a list at the end if you really, really want to know. Here is the recording:

Expression

The patch is played using a joystick and a floor pedal.

The floor pedal is operating a switch with 5v running to one of two outputs. One output isn’t patched, while the other is used to gate both sections of a dual function generator which sends out two envelopes: one for the exciter and one for the delay/body feedback path [see below]. The switch operates momentarily at first, then latches for most of the recording.

The joystick controls a number of parameters using its x and y bipolar outputs.

x is sent to the v/8 input of a body filter, the FM input of a room filter, and through some pretty heavy slewing and attenuation to the v/8 input of a delay line.

y is controlling both of the aforementioned envelopes total respective durations. The particular inputs used are scaled to v/8 but an ‘all’ input or multing the signal to rise and fall will also work. y also controls a crossfading circuit on a pitched delay [see below].

Exciter

The exciter section is a bit more involved than what I’ve done in the past. It feels pretty crucial for a bowed instrument, so I paid a lot of attention to it. In fact its probably the section that received the most tweaks attention across the entire patch.

First, noise is sent into a distortion module. I’m not actually totally clear on whether there is also saturation happening, so try different stuff out! Also, I made some alterations during recording and I can’t remember if the core cello sound used straight white noise, pink noise or extremely low-pass filtered noise, so again, try stuff out!

The distorted noise is then sent to a VCA and enveloped with a pretty short log rise/expo fall function sent by the one of the function generator segments mentioned above. The VCA I used was a four-quadrant multiplier, but in the patch it was just acting as a regular ol’ linear vca with no offset and the envelope is pretty highly attenuated. This is patched into a matrix mixer and then sent to the L input of a stereo delay module. Honestly, I don’t even know if this bit did the much in the final result and might just be an artifact of the patching process.

The bit that does a lot though is this: the distortion I used has an open feedback path. If yours doesn’t, you can make one using a matrix mixer or some other crafty mixing solution. The feedback path is running out to a limiter, then to another 4QM. Here I did use some negative offset and attenuverted the same envelope as before. So basically the exciter signal is being inverted and offset so that it always passes through, with the envelope providing an initial little jump in amplitude to simulate the bows first brush with the strings. The inverted exciter is then sent to the R input of a stereo delay and the R output is sent back into the feedback path of the distortion, as well as being multed to the FM input of the body filter. I found using negative feedback made things sound a little warmer and a little more muted, which I liked, but the differences were pretty subtle. However, this feedback path really felt like the secret sauce of the whole patch, making the overall sound much richer and “scratchier” like what you would expect from bowing a string.

String and Body

The string was taken from the L output of the same stereo delay mentioned in the exciter section. This signal is passed into a low-pass filter (actually I used a state-variable filter and played around with band-pass settings as well). Before moving on to the body, I’ll also mention that the pitch, besides being controlled by the slewed x signal from the joy stick, is also being very slightly FMed by a slowish sine wave lfo whose own FM input is being fed a free-running S&H. The effect of this is a very subtle, non-repeating vibrato. I like it a lot.

Like I mentioned before, the body filter is tracking along with the delay line (although not 1:1), and is being FMed by the delay line via the exciter feedback path. The filter’s resonance is set a bit after noon and is being modulated by noise. Again, play around with the noise you use. Looking at it right now, it looks like I’m using high-pass filtered noise, but I might have changed it after the recording I took. Ooooops.

From the output of the filter we go into a VCA, with the signal being enveloped by the other function generator segment. The response curve on this VCA is variable, but I used something between linear and exponential. The filter I used also has variable gain and I had to play around a lot with the ration between the filter’s gain and the VCA’s before I got it right. The envelope I used here was linear and had about equal proportions of attack and decay, set quite soft, though they would lengthen and shorten with the joystick’s y position.

Finally, the signal was sent through not one but two channels of limiting. Again, I don’t think this was strictly necessary. At one point I had some reverb in the feedback path without realizing it and everything was blowing up so I tried adding the second channel of limiting before I found my mistake.

Out of the limiter and into the matrix mixer, the signal is being sent in equal measure back in to the L input of the delay and out to my room section.

Room

To create a space for the sound, I used another stereo pitched delay, some reverb and a stereo lowpass filter. The reverb is built in to the delay I used but you can roll your own.

First, one channel of the matrix mixer (the one with just the feedback loop, sans the exciter) is sent into the L input of the delay. The delay is set super fast and pitched up in…4ths? I don’t know, I’m not really trained in that way. The y output of the joystick controls the dry/wet control of the delay. This basically creates a copy of the original signal that harmonizes with it, although not super dynamically. You could make it dynamic though with some sequencing or other clever expression modules.

There’s more reverb than you might think. I find placing the filter after the reverb gives a much more intimate feeling to the patch, but the means that a lot of the reverb gets dampened. Its funny, this final delay and reverb section almost feel like they’re still part of the body, I guess because I’ve never heard an instrument outside of an acoustic/reverberant/resonant space like an anechoic chamber.

Finally, the stereo filter I used is sending -12db/8 outputs to a mixer, while -24db/8 outputs are self patched: L is patched to one FM input (this filter has two), R is patched to a stereo skew parameter. And lastly, the x output of the joystick is being sent to the filter’s other FM input where it is inverted and drastically attenuated so that higher pitches mean the filter’s cutoff chokes up just a little bit - lower notes ring longer and higher notes ring shorter.

Kit, if you're really dying to know

1xDoepfer 138s Stereo Mixer
1xInstruo Neoni
2xInstruo Vinca
1xInstruo tanh[3]
1xIntellijel Planar[2]
1xIntellijel Duatt
1xMake Noise Mimeophon
1xMake Noise Wogglebug
1xMutable Instruments Beads
1xRitual Electronics Altar
1xRitual Electronics Miasma
1xRitual Electronics Anima
1xRitual Electronics Pointeuse
1xRitual Electronics Krach
1xToppobrillo Sport Modulator
1xWorng Electronics Parallax
1xWorng Electronics Soundstage

I know this breakdown is kind of a lot, but I figured I would write it all out both as a memory aid for myself and to try and give a detailed explanation of what these kinds of patches look like. I’m pretty new to synthesis and even newer to PM, and up until super recently it wasn’t entirely clear to me that eg you need a VCA in your feedback path or that there are a lot of ways of going about the same thing, as in the case of my exciter. Hope this is interesting/helpful to someone, and I would love to hear any feedback (heh) you might have on the patch!

Oh also please forgive the incredibly sloppy playing in the recording. Hitting the right note with an unquantized joystick is so, so hard.

edit: haha, when i uploaded this soundcloud recommended i tag it as “classical” and my phone listened to it and thought it was the orchestral cover of “If I Had a Heart” by Fever Ray that the show Vikings uses as a theme song. I’ve got someone fooled…well, some software at least :face_with_peeking_eye:

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thanks for this detailed description, it sounds really cool, alive and weird in a good way :slight_smile:
the reference to alchemy is quite fitting i think. physical modeling to me is the only synthesis where i truly feel that i am building a patch and not just plugging in patch cords to let the signal flow. i first have to create a signal to flow and the path it takes is not just voltage transfer but itself a crucial part in signal creation. even though a pm patch often has a pretty clear ‘command structure’ (a signal flow from left to right / exciter to body) it fits the cybernetic concept of a self-regulating feedback network. all these little points on the way to the result affect the whole structure. that’s why for me these self built pm patches feel more organic than the algorithmic solutions of current modules, even though those might sound more “real”. anyhow, great post @juje, thanks!

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I would be very interested to hear more on how exactly to replicate this patch. If you’re willing to explain, of course.

You mention LFOs cross-modulating their phases, but I’m curious where you get the audio rate; Is it from the high resonance of the filters? And am I right to understand that each filter just sits in the phase modulation path?

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hi @hyena ,
can you upload the reaktor ensemble here, that would be very nice?!
thanks

Thank you for the patch. I’m not familiar with Reaktor so apologies for the dumb question(s):

Are the PhM objects the equivalent to an atttenuator?

I’ll try this with Nord Modular engine and report back, before I can try it in Eurorack. I’m waiting for the upcoming Shakmat Banshee Reach betas, I don’t have phase modulated oscillators at the moment.

Your recording is fabulous, thank you for your generosity.

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thanks, it’s sounding really cool!
that’s exactly what i like about patching such feedback systems, it’s so alive and somewhat mysterious. so it’s clear that the filter “creates” the reed/brass like sound, if i open the filter with no q the sound now does sound like i imagined crossmodulated phase modulation, almost white noise like harmonically rich sounds. the frequency of the filter acts like a slew on the movement and sets the range of the “instrument”. the q then creates the oscillation. i wonder if it is indeed a self oscillating filter and the two pm act more like “exciter” and “envelope” of the sound.
really cool patch. the phase modulation needs to be at a certain point to get the two lfo into audible range, it’s interesting to hear, that even though these are lfos, the crossmodulation creates sounds in the audible range.
i’m now eager to try it in my modular, the d0 can do the phase modulation job :slight_smile:

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Has anyone tried reproducing this patch in VCV? Trying to better understand what’s going on but I don’t have reaktor, nord, or er301

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Any LFOs with phase shifting in VCV?

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