i think it’s about what material you want to present. i don’t really care how performative a uh performance is if good work is hitting my ears. i’m not gonna dock you points for mixing between semi-prepared/prepared material if you mix it well and it’s well constructed.

id rather see you sit there with a laptop and a mixer and give me something compelling for 30 minutes than see you flail at a really sick setup man and it’s more about the gear and the flailing than what i hear.

play to yr strengths

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To be honest I don’t think there will be a hardware that can replace laptop. I have been searching for such thing for few years and my personal conclusion is: if you want to play music live compose it with that in mind. For example try to play some of the parts “live” while composing a track or automate effects by hand using midi controllers or leave some room for improvisation. I have an octatrack but I think it is best used to “destroy” source audio and create something completely new from it than triggering samples as they were recorded.

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There was a thread about the Akai Force, which is immediately what came to mind while reading this thread. I dunno if anyone has actually engaged it yet, but seems like a solid no-laptop approach that could probably integrate with other gear if you want to work with audio stems.

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I don’t know if this will be much help, but I wrestled with this question for years. Honestly, I gave up and went back to playing the guitar.

What I’ve realized over time is that every instrument is a compromise. Nothing can do everything. The guitar you can play any note you want at any time, you have physical contact with the strings, you can play chords but not too complicated. Piano you can play any note you want at any time, no physical contact with the strings (usually) but you can play very complex chords. Saxophone, you can play any note at any time, you have physical contact with that note, but you can only play one note at a time (for the most part).

Following from this, any “electronic” instrument is a decision about what compromises you are willing to make, what your priorities are about the sounds that you make and how you make them. With Live you can play any sound at any time, but usually you have to preplan when that time is, and you can only use a sound that is ready to go (if you narrow down to a sampler getting midi from a clip). You can have a synth set to any sound, and you can play notes with your midi keyboard, but you can’t play your drum machine too. Would it be cheating to play the keys and not the drums? How about the drums and not the keys? What about the bass line? You choose how this book ends.

Another question, do DJs cheat people? The answer is yes and no, it depends on the context and what you’re expecting out of it. Is a DJ more or less versatile than a house band?

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First thing i thought of. Of course, the familiarity of the audience with payoff ‘hooks’ will depend entirely on the visibility of each artist. I like this method though and i’m a nothing.

You might consider this: The listener’s context will change how they perceive the music, and hence what you need to do as a musician to convey musically.

Someone listening to a recording on headphones will be tuned to just the sound itself. And as such, one way to approach that as a musician is to spend the time to refining the tracks. Multiple takes, careful EQ, subtle mixing choices, mastering… all go into it because the listener will hear it.

On the other hand, an audience member at a live performance generally has different stance with respect to the music: The sense of “now” is heightened, the social aspect of deliberate listening (or dancing) with others, and auditory experience is different (and generally much more forgiving). As a musician, this means that the subtle EQ choice isn’t going to come through much - whereas playing to the feelings of the group will. The boldness of your performance pushing the music (bolder… more ambient… faster… slower… whatever) will be more in the audience’s mind - and imperfections (or, gasp, wrong notes, mistakes…) will often hardly register.

Of course, I’ve drawn two extremes - a live concert in a shushed concert hall has a different vibe (and far different audience expectation), than an experimental music night at a warehouse. Listening on high end headphones in the livingroom is different than the background music at a dinner party.

In summary - If you want to perform your music live - you should reconsider your concept of “perfect”. Think about the context in which you’ll be playing live, and the way the audience will be approaching the act of listening. “Perfect” for that context is quite different than “perfect” in your studio.

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Beautiful reply. In my head I am stuck with the octatrack as the “perfect” machine to do this. I am buying one

I just love the simplicity, clarity and wisdom of this. Over and over I find that great insights are rarely complicated, yet too often our view gets blurred.

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There’s nothing wrong with playing back clips but I would also listen back to the set and see if there’s any lead lines or parts you could recreate on a midi controller or other instrument. Jamming is ok but if there’s something that already works in the track, it’s fine to play that existing part.
One of my favorite live sets ever was a Shigeto set where he played drums over a backing track and triggered occasional samples and played synths very once in a while. Even though a lot of the songs didn’t have drums on the record it added something to have him physically contributing to the sound. Not sure why but there’s something that audiences latch onto when they perceive that you’re putting in some form of effort to crest what they’re hearing.
If all else fails though, dance a little to fill the gaps where you have nothing to do.

I think this is a good example - Flore- she adds things live to her mostly polished ableton stems.

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I think there’s a lot of nice thinking here :ok_hand:

Without being technical - I also realised that there’s a limit to what two hands and ten fingers can do. I also want two things - to be reasonably confident I can give the audience a good experience, and to have a small amount of freeness. I also want something to ensure I don’t rush if it’s a big (for me) event.

That’s taken me to where I have a combination of stems, pre- configured patches, a fair bit of automation coming out of live into modular, and loads of controls. I rehearse the controls and refine the control ranges. A lot.

Then, when I’m playing, I can forget all that and respond to my ears - with 3% of my brain fixing on where I am in the timeline.

I imagine that I’ll do something more involved in the future, but TBH most of the tippy-top shows I’ve been to are similar or even less complicated. Tech issues kill a vibe, even if the audience is friendly - and aside from that, the music shouldn’t be infringed on by the setup.

That’s where I’m at now, anyway. :slightly_smiling_face:

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Great thread! Recently I’ve be zeroing in on a set of ios tools that cover a lot of ground between play back, generative and live manipulation all in sync with 2 rows of modular.
ios host - AUM
Playback/live manipulation - DJDJ
Clock sync - MIDI Link Sync
Generative/live manipulation - Borderlands, Samplr, Drambo and a 6U Modular (mostly Pittsburgh)
Mixing/live manipulation - Analog mixer with pedals (delay & reverb) in aux send configuration.

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Is that the Generator and Expander behind a single faceplate, way over on the left in the bottom row? I didn’t know they made it that way.

This is a topic that is very important to me too.
Coming from an heavy stoner rock band my concept of playing live is tied to play some instrument and taking risks. That’s why the computer is a no for me, somehow it make me feel like im cheating.

Im trying to work with the octatrack at the moment , but is a very hard relationship: that machine allows you to do crazy live stuff, but sometimes i cant figure it out.

My best live show have been with a Deluge as master, a 303 , a tr8 and a mixer with some fx to do some dub things.
Im sure that with ableton my life would be easier and no one would care, so who knows, maybe sooner or later…

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Yup, the Generator X!
Up until recently I was using it as the rhythmic core of the set, but I figured another more stable and flexible technique.

What a beauty. I have the two separate modules. It’s sad that this wild thing is no longer in production. (This and the Timetable.) It’s so unpredictable – for me, anyway – that I personally wouldn’t use it live though. I like to have a little more control.

I posted my secret beat Generator patch years ago on MW
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=66603&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
Give it a try and let me know if it works for you, you don’t need the expander.

Happy to see this thread come alive since I revived it. :relaxed: I recently relistened to @madeofoak on the Sound&Process podcast and realized that creating a liveset and be ready to perform when possible is something I should do.

Since, that realization I’ve mostly given my self excuses to buy more gear. An APC40 mk 1, Kaoss Pad 3+ and a Submarine Pro pickup for guitar.

My idea is to build a set that is a hybrid of singer/songwriter and electronics based around Ableton Live. It might be an overtly optimistic idea. And recently I’ve been trying to adjust my thinking from “all that’s possible” with multiple machines to “what’s the minimum I need to do on stage” to keep a solo-performance interesting. The insight being that just adding a delay-pedal could take a singer-songwriter-set to 2.0.

Thanks for sharing your insights. I too love playing, hosting and visiting live shows. Great to hear people from the synth community are willing to take their talent from the studio to the stage. Here’s some anecdotal advice from my side.

Back in the late 90’s, early 00’s I did extreme metal with tons of synths and beats in a band called NWD. We had live drums, bass, vocals and guitar and used a Roland MC505 (later a Fostex D90) on stage to get click track to our drummer and synths/beats/etc to FOH. As you might imagine our click+backing approach did not go down well with the rock and metal purists. So I can say I got familiar very early on with people’s opinion on how ‘live music’ should be played. In 2004 we added a VJ to our line up, which further confused the purists as our VJ used midi controllers and keyboards to control video. After shows we had some hilarious responses of people telling us they could ‘clearly see our keyboard guy was not really playing live’. Hilarious indeed. But it also gave me a sense of disconnection.

In 2007 I formed my new group Schwarzblut that rooted in the industrial goth scene. It was basically a studio project brought to life with two vocalists, a drummer, a bass player, a VJ and an extensive Ableton Live multi channel backing track system. This time my experience was the exact opposite: we got a lot of praise for bringing the music to life with ‘real people playing real instruments’. Mostly due to the fact that this scene has a lot of acts who’s live shows are closer to a DJ performance than to a band performance. With us they could dance and also enjoy a band performance plus double screen video show. After twelve years I grew tired of the tyranny of preprogrammed live shows that come with this approach and decided to quit.

In 2015 I started Voltmeister. A eurorack-based live improv group. To fully rid myself of the aforementioned tyranny I deliberately got rid of ‘the song’ as a concept to organize music by. We approach a show as a collection of scene’s. Where a scene can be void (total improvisational freedom) or constrained by one or more elements (bpm/tempo, key, length, atmosphere, etc). Leaving lots of room for spontaneity, happy accidents and actual screwups. For Voltmeister performances (that we do as a duo or trio) we discuss the amount and elements of the scene’s in the weeks leading up to the performance. Effectively making a setlist as a starting point for an enjoyable performance of structured improvisations. For our bi-monthly Square Wave series of open improvisation sessions (with a maximum of 8 participants each session) we let randomly drawn duo’s improvise for 10 minutes to a randomly drawn bpm (60-160bpm). We did 9 editions so far and it still is fresh and exciting every time.

What I learned from all of this and therefore are my tips to share:

  • Not all audiences are the same. Observe: what does your audience want from a live show?
  • What would make you proud/happy to achieve at a live show? What would you want it/you to be remembered for?
  • Risk, improvisation and variation = excitement. For both the performer and the audience. If they want to hear the album version they might just as well have stayed home.
  • Know that a performance is more that just ‘playing an instrument’. Make sure to connect with your audience in the way that suits you best. Weird mask? Crazy backdrop? Insane skills? Great MC? Whatever you like.
  • No amount of rehearsing can prepare for the chaos and fun of a live show. Don’t overthink but give it a go. Develop your show on stage over time. Allow yourself to make mistakes, learn, bring new elements, sharpen your skills.
  • Bring a safety net. Richard Devine has some great things to say about that.

This my longest Lines post to date. Hope you find something here. I am by no means an expert. But by all means a live music enthusiast. Please share your story so I can learn from your experiences.

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inevitable stodgy “its not about the gear” post, but i guess it comes down to what like, techniques/conceptual framing/metaphors do you want for engaging with live performance of yr compositions. The cool thing is all of these techniques can be tried out in Ableton with nothing else, or maybe a MIDI controller or two while you suss it.

like, the “dub style” stem everything out and process it has been mentioned a lot, but others:

yr a conductor and the tracks are your orchestra. Can you mix things, cue certain parts, etc etc and finesse it during? Maybe this is what the music needs and the pressure to like, do the the ‘emotional knob twist’ can be ignored.

the sampler/laptop/synth/etc is an instrument. 1 to 1 interface engagement to sound production. more sparse, but more direct?

you are the ‘soloist’ and the tracks are you backing band. set up some tracks and JAM OUT over em?

you are a 2010’s style looper/trickster/magician. find ways to atomize the tracks, then build piece by piece in real time as part of the performance?

tons of other metaphors/frames im missing, etc etc

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