Improving the signal chain

[Gregg]

@guitargyro

Chandler stuff just seems to ooze character. I really wanted a Pultec EQ or I prob would have went that way

To solve that problem, I went with a Thermionic Culture Pullet into a TG2. Daily use for over 12 years now.

[pelang]

I am wondering if someone has good advice. I got a tape reel to reel machine and would like to integrate it in my setup.
Basically all the eurorack ends up in the WMD performance mixer with a OTO boum in the inserts. From there the signal goes in an analogue eq with lundahl transformers (SPL Passeq) and from there to my sound devices pre6.

modular>WMD mixer>EQ>mixpre 6

Now i would like to split the signal after the SPL eq so i can simultaneous record on the digital mixpre6 and the Revox b77

I could use the signal out from the mixpre6 but I guess then the signal gets digitalised.

Is there a “simple” splitter or I just solder my own cable ?

What would you do ?

[Hovercraft]

The stereo output from the MixPre is an analog signal path—I’d use that. The signal goes through ADC if you’re recording, but the MixPre only outputs recorded files or USB audio interface signals through the DAC.

[pelang]

Thanks Hovercraft. I was looking up the manual of the mixpre6 but couldn’t find out if the signal goes through an AD/DA conversion (even during recording). If the signal stays analog that is an excellent solution.
Still need to split the TRS to for the Speakers (SPL Volume controller) and the tape machine.

[Hovercraft]

Ok, you have a couple of choices. Easy to take the headphone output to your speakers or you can split the stereo out the the deck and monitor controller (TRS tip to left ch tip 1 and 2, TRS ring to right ch tip1 and 2, TRS shield to left and right ch shields). The Mixpre has 20 db of gain available on the outputs, if you need to boost the signal a bit–although you might not even need it.

[Rodrigo]

So I’ve been using a DPA4060 for years now, as my main drum/sampling/processing microphone, and have loved the sound and the results, but after doing some tests and making a better mount for my 4060 I noticed I was getting some weird distortion.

Here’s what I mean:

The tracks are labelled, but they are from top to bottom:
1 - Naiant omni lapel
2 - 4060 mounted on a Sensory Percussion sensor
3 - 4060 mounted on the telescoping Naiant arm
4 - Earthworks DM20

Basically, all in this position:

As you can see, the 4060s are both “clipping”, but with loads of headroom still left on the preamps. I’ve noticed this in the past with other preamps as well, so I don’t think it’s my soundcard/preamp/gear. I think I’m running up against the SPL limits of the mics.

So, this is a bit of a bummer.

I’ve done some audio comparisons between all the mics, and although the DM20 has the best dynamic range (at this proximity/SPL), I kind of like the omni-ness of the 4060s.

This link will evaporate in a week, but if anyone is curious here is the audio from the screen shot as well as some more “performance”-y audio:

MicExamples.zip

I’m kind of torn whether to get a 4061 with the new Core guts, as a “same but better” alternative or looking at something else.

I thing something like Schoeps are a bit out of my price range at the moment, and I don’t want to go to something too bulky or lipstick-shaped, so I’m not really sure of what other options there are.

Any drum/mic-heads out there have any thoughts?

[RABID]

@Rodrigo

As you can see, the 4060s are both “clipping”… I don’t think it’s my soundcard/preamp/gear… I think I’m running up against the SPL limits of the mics

i don’t think it’s your soundcard/preamp/gear either, but since you have two 4060s, you have the opportunity to leave one as a ‘control group’ in a test.
try hanging it free of any mount(if you can, hang it from above and protect from any slight air currents in the room that would cause it to sway by using any sound-barriers you might have to place around your setup, or just clip it to a stand, as long as its not mounted directly to the drum, and place it around the same distance as the telescoping Naiant arm), then run two tests to compare that ‘control group’/mount-free version with the mounted versions.
on the visual you posted here, i can tell your hits caused a low-frequency amplitude modulation on the SP#11 near the end of the waveform(when i worked at Pandora as recording-engineer, did some in-house side-gigs recording bands there, this looks similar to when a drummer accidentally hit the mic stand - your mount might be vibrating the mic further in unpredictable ways even if you don’t accidentally hit it).
i did notice from your wetransfer files some weird clipping but it could also be the way the mounts encase the mics or even resonate within themselves, thus changing the mics omnidirectional nature or summing some unexpected input. either way, since you have two, you’ve got the opportunity to leave one naked as a ‘control group’ to make sure, before buying something else which might end up running into similar probs(i am fairly certain, with mounting at intimate closeness to drums, you’re probably running into SPL probs, too, since these are older(how old are they?) sensitive mics that don’t have that Core tech, either, but might as well make sure - the DM20 seems the only mount here specifically built for its mic, so the other mounts might hold some extra wildcards).

[Rodrigo]

Good points all around!

Mine are indeed older ones. I bought them in 2014, so pre-Core ones for sure.

I did borrow some 4061s and 4060s from my school (at the time) and compared, and for what I was doing (micing the “whole kit” from the snare), the 4060s were fine and I got no clipping.

I think it’s the brutal proximity to the snare that is an issue here.

That AM at the end of that hit is kind of crazy.

For what it’s worth, the DPA that’s mounted on the SP pickup is somewhat decoupled from the SP pickup. The 3d printed mount was designed so there are three rubber feet between the 3d printed part and the SP pickup, and the elastic is stretchy too. Plus, the physical mount is that DPA-brand rubbery holder. So that should hopefully mitigate some of the direct coupling to the snare.

Surprisingly I hear more of the coupling (as rumbling) from the DM20 (nothing that a highpass can’t handle).

I will try some testing as you’ve suggested by having a DPA not coupled to the snare at all, and at a further distance to see how far back you need to be for the SPL to not be an issue. I suspect/worry that with the 4060s I have, the answer is “too far”.

It was also interesting reading in that DPA article I linked above how there are physical limits to what a(ny) mic can do too, with enough SPL. I don’t think I’m generating that kind of SPL from my snare, but it’s cool to think that air pressure can only go so “low” before it becomes a vacuum, so you can have physics-based asymmetrical clipping via air molecules.

[abalone]

what if you put up something (condenser, or even a pzm)
right over/behind your head…
as a player, you’re making the drums speak to your ears

I’ve heard tales of drummers putting a boom box cassette recorder
right behind their heads
in a big room on a mic’d up kit, with many great mics
even just to have something to mix in
also being able to tell the producer “this is how I hear it, make it sound like this”

[Rodrigo]

There’s definitely loads I can do in a more studio-y “mic stand” context, but in general I prefer to keep everything on or very close to the drum.

I do have a couple cool ideas that I want to explore in future videos with @Angela with stuff like this (moving mics etc…) though!

[_mark]

I wouldn’t be surprised if you were hitting max spl levels on the 4060s. You could test it more thoroughly by recording the same type of hit from very quiet through to very loud - then see if there is a point where it squares off the wave. If you’ve got an spl meter to watch alongside all the better. I’d be curious to know if you do try it!

[Rodrigo]

@_mark

You could test it more thoroughly by recording the same type of hit from very quiet through to very loud - then see if there is a point where it squares off the wave.

That’s pretty much what’s happening in the screenshot. You can see the dynamics going up in the 1st and 4th tracks, with the 2nd and 3rd getting capped pretty aggressively. Along with some weird AM in the 2nd track that @RABID pointed out.

[Gahlord]

There’s a high pressure version of those micro DPAs if I recall. They came in six variations: mic variation for very high SPL, high SPL, and regular SPL and then crossed with no filter dot-XLR attachment and low cut filter dot-XLR attachment.

The 4060, which I use on my double bass all the time, is the normal SPL version of that omni. The 4099 is the very high SPL version, I believe.

Here’s an article on the DPA site that discusses the legacy omnis:

https://www.dpamicrophones.com/mic-university/why-use-dpa-mics-live-condenser-mics

[Gahlord]

The naiant mount is performing better in your test simply because it’s further away from the snare than the other mount. But both of them only make it to your third solid hit before the SPL is too much for your 4060. Most acoustic stuff seems to work at double-the-distance/half-the-volume. So I’d try moving the 4060 2x or 3x from the drum head as in the Naiant mount.

I doubt this is an issue with coupling or the mounts or any of that. Your solution for a less distorted recording will be to add distance (and thereby lower the SPL hitting the DPA) between the mic and the snare head. Or getting a 4099 which can handle higher SPL.

If you get a 4099 you can get it with a drum mount (4099D) so you can keep it clipped. You may be able to find the drum mount separately and then get one or two gooseneck extension arms (GE4099) to give you enough distance to use that 4060.

[Joseph]

This is why I use Josephson e22s on snare drum. No clipping ever with the hardest hitting drummer imaginable. The capture fidelity is also maintained at the highest SPL. They are made out of machined brass, so they won’t break if someone hits them with a stick.

They also sound really nice on acoustic guitar and other plectrum instruments, and guitar cabs. Can’t recommend them enough. They aren’t omni, but have good bass and very smooth off-axis pickup, unlike a lot of condenser mics.

[RABID]

Rodrigo has a special need for intimately-close miking with nicely guarded fidelity:

Kaizo Snare | Rodrigo Constanzo

better for sampling all nuances that can be fed into flucoma and other tools he’s using(or will come up with in the future) to get the best results. i’m sure most already know, but just mentioning it here so folks can understand exactly what the need is for.

[Gahlord]

4099D + a 4060 on a D mount with one or two extensions. Blend between the two: 4099 for hot signals, 4060 for quiet. If only one, then the 4099 would be the way to go. This gets him two mics with similar characteristics, mounted on the snare as he prefers both pick up all kinds of sounds. With the extreme dynamic range available to a snare being used artistically in this way, two mics is how I’d go–one for loud, one for soft, blend to taste.

In the art music scenes that I run in and which include music that would be right at home alongside Rodrigo’s work, the DPA setups are standard for live performance. Like people don’t even say “microphone” they say “DPA.”

[Joseph]

I realize that a gooseneck mic is preferred here and you meant your comment generally, but there are trade offs for that convenience.

@Gahlord

The DPA 4099 is a great natural live mic, that is certainly true. But the supercard pattern while convenient for live close miking can be restrictive in my view if the goal is the best capture and ensemble stage bleed is not an issue. I mean, you know this. But I feel it’s worth stressing there is a trade off to an electret condenser built for behind-bridge-mounting and rejection.

Personally if I were using two mics, I wouldn’t use one that is prone to clipping (assuming reg 4060) on the top. I would put it on the shell or once in a while the snares. But something like a stand-mounted KM84 or AKG 460B (discontinued but excellent and affordable neutral condenser with transformer) is more ideal for this. A KM84 is also great for brushes.

Likewise, if I were looking specifically for blend, I wouldn’t use two condenser mics, I would use something mounted overhead like a ribbon. You’d be surprised how much side rejection you can get from a fig 8 like a Coles, even of loud amps nearby (for live though I’d think a cheaper ribbon like a fathead would be a safer choice), but a hypercard M160 a few feet up tends to work well live too.

Most of a snare’s sound comes from the whole shell as it propagates. This is true even for brushes. So just miking a snare with a clip on is not really ideal, even if it’s convenient in this case. If you just mic the top you end up with a detached sound. This is also true of guitar amplifiers, where one might use a ribbon mic a couple feet back to get some bloom, and a closer mic for definition.

Just my opinion, though.

[RABID]

i clicked the ‘reply’ button to the general thread(but saw you replying, was worried you might wonder about it )
just realizing it might help the general thread to post his specific-advancements there…all good (<-meant as ‘hang loose’ hand )

[Joseph]

Yeah, I figured. I’ll edit my post.