Improving the signal chain

[Gregg]

I used a Chandler TG2 for this for over a decade. It did make everything you sent through it sound better. BUT I eventually swapped it out for an Elysia Skulptur Qube cos I wanted something cleaner with less noise, mainly cos I stopped mastering hybrid and went all ITB, and just wanted a nice clean pre/di for recording.

[ppqq]

for adding a little saturation and limiting to synths, i really like the overstayer MAS. (thanks to @madeofoak for the original recommendation.)

@madeofoak

only other rec i’d add would be the overstayer MAS . it’s a two channel limiting amp with three inputs per channel, and i usually use it either as a DI or after my stereo bus compressor on the main bus. when you push it it sounds like an old british console bus pushed into the red, and when used more lightly it just feels like a mix finisher. my favorite piece of studio gear i’ve bought in years, maybe ever.

(i agree with all of the above.)

for guitar, the neve rndi has been a pleasant surprise. might be good for synths too. haven’t tried it!

edit: i use TG2 mic pres for recording (electric) guitar. amazing. (pretty sure I owe @Gregg a thanks for that.) nice for DI too. ah and on the pure DI front, i’m a big fan of the phoenix nice di.

[guitargyro]

Really depends on what I’m recording for pres. But for stereo setups (stereo synth, drum machines, Elektron stuff) I have been super satisfied with my A Designs REDDI V2. Basically a dual tube direct box/pre. Not too pricey (especially used) and it is one that I feel really sounds…tubey. In all the ways you want. Still clean, but definitely warmer.

I have 2 channels of API pre/eq, 2 of AEA TRP, 1 Chandler Germ pre, and 1 Retro Powerstrip Channel Strip. And a UA x8 with some ok pres. Haven’t been super into the plugins I have to say.

If I had another Retro Powerstrip I’d probably think about selling some stuff and call it a day. Basically a tube pre, simple tube compressor, and Pultec style EQ. But not cheap, but definitely a one stop shop. Torn between getting another or instead delving into a good 1073 channel.

With pres I feel like it’s best to actually hear one before you buy. Some pres that get universally praised can often leave you wondering “what’s the hype all about?” You may like it on one thing, and hate it on another.

But yes, making electronic music, two channels is always best. Hence I still recommend the REDDI V2 as a starting point. Sounds great with pretty much everything I’ve plugged in.

[mystasea]

If I was living in the USA I would for sure have had a pair of Coil Audio pres…they seem kinda one stop shop for me…wish I could try em out.

Their PS6 rack seems wild as a centrepiece type thing.

But yeah Im also now thinking at getting some interesting DI’s for a slightly more cost effective means to just get things up to speed on the way in.

Coil Audio Review Part 1

[shortwave]

I have an Audient Mico preamp that I’ve found helps bring a different flavour to my recordings - like you I have a Babyface FS.

It’s no longer in production, but if you see a used one at a good price it’s worth checking out. Got two channels (one with a harmonic distortion control that adds a nice bit of heft to my ears) plus DI etc. You can hook it up via SPDIF/Toslink to yr Babyface.

SOS review:

Audient Mico

[idioteque]

Wow, thank you very much to everyone for the inputs! That gives me a lot of material to investigate.
I think I am taking the time, as @Gahlord suggests, to test and listen to different suggested units by myself and with my instruments, during next weeks / months.
A good DI + a new mic instead of a preamp can also be a possibility, it’s true.

@Gregg Elysia Skulptur Qube got my attention when released, I am also curious to test this one. I did some online researches yesterday after your post, and I found lots of your enthusiastic feedbacks everywhere (on Gearslutz–space, RME forum, etc)

[Gregg]

@idioteque

@Gregg Elysia Skulptur Qube got my attention when released, I am also curious to test this one. I did some online researches yesterday after your post, and I found lots of your enthusiastic feedbacks everywhere (on Gearslutz–space, RME forum, etc)

It’s insanely versatile, insanely clean and low noise, insanely fully featured and has enough gain for 99% of mics. The DI inputs are 1MOhm so don’t load pickups down (I always found the TG2 really darkened passive pickups tone). I can’t sing its praises highly enough. Let me know if you have any questions and I’ll do my best to answer.

It was a toss up between that and the Cranborne Camden EC2 but I kept reading bad things about them since they moved manufacturing offshore, a friend told me the build quality on his EC1 wasn’t great, and I had no use for the dual headphone amps etc. The Elysia rocks in combination with the RME Pro 2/4 SE, add a couple of mics if needed, a laptop and cans and you have a totally portable recording rig of the highest quality.

I think you can’t get the manual for the “Qube” part online, but it has both balanced and unbalanced Ins and Outs on the back which make it a very powerful interfacing box.

Had it about a year now, no regrets. I don’t find much use for the EQ/saturation or compression, but it’s good to have them if needed.

I’ll stop now…

[Gregg]

@Gahlord

Bummer to hear about the Camden. I have a pair of their 500 series preamps from when they first launched and they are really nice, super clean but with the “mojo” knob to add oomph when desired. I thought their whole thing was about being made in Britain etc so especially a bummer if that’s how they messed it up.

I don’t want to slag them, I was into researching them for a few years, but have never seen or tried one in person. They got ripped on the forums when they moved manufacturing to Asia a few years back, and I read a few bad reports about QC online, but it was mostly my good friend in Japan telling me if he had to do it over again, he’d definitely go with the Elysia over the Cranborne stuff. Maybe he just got a bad one, but he also has another Elysia product to compare it to. The Skulptur Qube is a bit more pricey then the EC2, but it’s all German, the build quality is great, the sound quality is amazing, it also has two different EQ/saturation controls etc. So no regrets!

[idioteque]

@Gahlord

If you want to add colour/width to your sound, then I would encourage you to look for colorful preamps. Do not look for clean sounding preamps because you already have 2 in your Babyface.

I think I came to a weird conclusion.

I’ve been spending some (great) time in the past two weeks testing and listening for three pres in a friend’s studio: a 1073 LB, a couple of APIs 512v and a Chandler TG2.
I liked them all, but I liked more the 1073 on vocals, the Chandler on electronic machines, the API on synths and guitars (but not all the time).
I then started thinking about 500-Series and having different pres for different flavours and tasks, but as I couldn’t make a decision about “the” starting pre, I eventually got scared by both the rabbit-hole factor and the economic consequences of it.

I then investigated the Elysia Skulptur Qube – without trying it in person, – and while it’s a super-clean sounding unit, I thought that it could be a good first step in the outboard world, as:

– it’s also a great DI
– has a HPF (why not!)
– has some little colouring options to begin with
– has a little useful compressor for tracking

So I think it still might be an improvement from my current setup, and I could keep saturating / warming / coloring things ITB (especially now that Michelangelo is out) before going for the next step – which would be starting a LunchBox adventure.

So, I firstly wanted a colouring pre and I’m finally going for another transparent but more versatile one.
Before pulling the trigger on it, I’d like to know what others think about this choice.
Am I doing something stupid here?

[idioteque]

@Gahlord

Though if you know you’ll be doing 500 series in the future you may as well get the lunchbox now and get the Skulpturs in 500. No point paying for the box/power supply twice.

Also thinking about it, indeed.
Thank you very much to you and to everyone for your great inputs and your time!

[janglesoul]

Hi,
The mythology of Neve 1073 has over the years become an itch that’s hard not to scratch. (What if I’m missing out on something!??) For the last 3-4 years I’ve had a Focusrite Clarett interface and a “neve:ish” preamp called “vintagedesign m87d” - vintagedesign being a subbrand of Swedish boutique-maker TK Audio. From what I’ve learnt this preamp, that I already own, has the pre-transformer of Neve 1081 and the output transformer of 1073 (Carnhill).

Recently, I got the opportunity to acquire/try its sister “m73d” (a 1073 clone) that a friend has. So, I’ve been doing shoot-outs and comparisons using different mics, bass-DI etc (matching gain levels and listening closely). The preamp stage of the m73d seems to have a little more gain and it seems to have a wider range of saturation levels - from a subtle spark all the way to, well, fuzz.

It’s not a night and day difference, in fact they sound indistinguishable at lower pre-gain settings. I would have hoped to be blown away.
But maybe I’m doing it wrong? Does the benefit of the 1073 show more in dense mixes than in A/B-testing on single mono sources?

Any advice what to listen for, what to exlore – would be very appreciated.

(Of course, it’s not a real Neve. So, I’ll never get rid of the FoMo-itch.)

[janglesoul]

Thanks @Gahlord for offering perspective and sharing your knowledge.

My friend has agreed to let me borrow it/try it for another week (or more). So I’ll see if I can do some more tests with the tracks of a whole song passing through it.

If I can’t hear any magic, maybe it’s just not for me. Nothing to worry about.

[ppqq]

@Gahlord

For me, with all saturation devices (preamps, random analog circuits, transformer things, tape) the best outcomes are from a small amount applied across a wide number of channels. Or a small amount applied repeatedly to a single channel (once on the way in, once or twice during the mix for in/out to other analog gear, once during mixdown, once during mastering). Or ideally both: all the channels going through a process like above.

this made me think of the idea of “sonic varnish” as described in tape-op years ago. oddly, i can’t find the original, but here’s a re-post:

Sonic Varnish

the salient bit (and what really struck me on my initial reading and my experience since) is how accumulative the effect is. assuming that’s right you may not hear much in an a/b shoot-out. taking it further, depending on your process, you may never hear much difference either assuming your tracks only ever get “one coat”.

[janglesoul]

Thanks @ppqq and @Gahlord for the links. The analogy of varnish makes sense. I’m unsure if it helps my decision between two preamps. I think they both would each offer a nice layer. Maybe I should try reamping multiple times to see what happens?

I remember reading an article with Bibio in which he told about what happens when you bounce audio samples to tape (up to six generations) layering more and more hiss, wow & flutter.

[LLK]

Wasn’t this precisely why PT added that “Heat” feature a few years back? I’ve never used it but always liked the concept of having a native way to manage cumulative effects over tons of tracks.

[ppqq]

another thing that i’ve grown to appreciate is how a pre (or interface) behaves when inadvertently pushed too hard (from e.g., rogue transients). does it limit in a serviceable way or will you be left with something nasty you’ll need to eq, edit or otherwise work-around?

(aside: this was a huge selling point of burl converters for me. i just don’t worry about clipping anymore. the input transformers do a kind of soft limiting thing that’s magic. )

@Gahlord

It’s only your own ears and feelings as you listen that matters.

amen!

and in general, trust yourself. if one speaks to you, trust that. if one feels better (ergonomics, build, mojo) that’s as real as anything else.

have fun experimenting!

[janglesoul]

Yes, I can see that fuzzy break-up on the dramatic parts of an emotional vocal could be effective and an esthetic decision. Or velocity sensitive synth notes etc.

As you say, I need to experiment. thanks

[whisper3000]

This is an interesting thread. I’ve learned quite a bit. I’ve also learned that the most-loved compressors and pre-amps tend to be very expensive.

I’ve been looking into less expensive (<$100) ways to add a little “sonic varnish” to the output of my eurorack rig. Most of my rack is digital and I’ve been wanting some analog saturation and “warmth.”

One inexpensive method I’ve been thinking about (less than $100 CAD) is a cheap home audio tube amp or preamp.

Here is an example unit:

Nobsound NS-10P Mini Vacuum Tube Stereo Preamp HiFi Home Audio Pre-Amplifier...

There are many similar units available, many of them look quite dubious.

My plan is to place the amp between the Pico Out of my rack and my Zoom H4. Does anyone have any experience with this kind of amp? In particular, applying it to the output of a eurorack rig?

Or, if this seems like a terrible idea, what other methods might you suggest?

[Jfkimmedy]

There are many good, affordable saturation/tube plugins out there that do a well enough job imo. I get that people want something „real“ to get that certain „I ran my stuff through some x for some analog warmth“-vibe but for me the emulations do a well enough job and they have more control. I’d try some softube saturation knob or Klanghelm IVGI or Soundtoys little radiator. I also find the preamps of the tascam 4 tracks to be a cheapish and good „warming unit“.

[anon60283851]

Home tube preamps are supposed to sound clean (eg. so that when you run a full finished stereo mix from a record through it to the power amp, it doesn’t sound very audibly overdriven, hence with less complex signals it ought to be even less audible a difference), so if they have a lot of audible distortion, they’re badly designed, or you’ll have to push the signal levels past some limits where the Zoom possibly can’t take them anymore. So that wouldn’t be my first choice - especially if you expect to get very obviously audible signal changes running a single track through a device rather than an accumulating effect.

How about some kind of eurorack saturation module that can be dialed for mild saturation / parallel mix for the end of the chain? I’d also suggest things like Analog Heat, but even the old version is “slightly” more than $100 used.

Guitar pedals are also cheap, but they tend to be more an effect than “varnish”.

With that kind of budget, I’d probably start with good software plug-ins too (eg. Klanghelm SDRR used to get a lot of use here), and go from there if they don’t feel good enough, but if you go straight from modular to a separate recorder without using a computer then obviously that’s not an option.