#44

I’m partial to Zen Comments on the Mumonkan of which I’ve only read a bit. Having commentary is interesting for me.

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#45

Haha! YES - this is me, entirely. I actually would part with the majority of my possessions if I could sell them because my outlook is more that I’d rather have 1 great thing than 10,000 things that are meh. The issue is that selling them is a pain in the arse and requires time… which I’d rather spend on the things I have fun with.

#46

On a related side note: any fans of Bolelli here?

#47

hey, Thanks! I posted in another thread that I had purchased the Cleary translation and found it an abomination due to the crass commentary.

I love commentary and all forms of scholarly apparatus in a book. Not only is it usually interesting typographically, there tend to be some really interesting leads to further reading therein.

The office worker’s drooping eyelid
1,000 facets of a single eMail - poof!

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#48

I haven’t read the Cleary, but that’s good to know!

In doing a little more research I found this page: https://terebess.hu/zen/mumonkan-eng.html

It has a number of PDFs of different translations and commentaries of the Gateless Barrier; might be helpful in making a decision about which to buy? I didn’t see the Shibayama in there but there are a number of other well- and lesser-known translations. The only one I’m curious about that isn’t present is the Hinton – I really like his translation of the Chuang Tzu so I’m curious about his koans.

I only dug a little bit, but it seems the Hungarian site I linked to above has a number of other Zen books and literature.

P.S. I enjoy your little signatures!

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#49

Reading Ram Dass and Alan Watts back in the 70s opened my mind to non-Western ways of thinking about culture and religion. Acknowledging that there are other, long standing practices of thinking… Connections.

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#50

Great thread. I myself always had some interest for zen and especially the way it express itself in the. Japanese culture. I read in a introductory book about Japanese philosophy something that might be of interest to you fellows : (translation+approximative memories may have distorted this quote, it was something like) : Japanese itself is, as the Zen disciple, an empty bowl ready to host many cultures and influences.
Japanese culture had it’s unique way, I find, to incorporate and make foreign culture it’s own (may it come from India, China, Europe or lately U.S.). This is kind of off topic but I’m coming to my point : I often fee non-legitimate when quoting or referring in my work to concepts such as Zen I feel I will never be able to fully understand, just because of my place of birth and deeply christian education. On one hand, I feel like it’s pure and simple cultural appropriation, on the other, I think about this “Japan-empy-bowl” idea which makes feel like the best path to wisdom is welcoming influences. How do y’all fell about this ?

Ok, I don’t know if this is totally off-topic. I guess it’s reverse topic : The Zen of Influence. Well, at least I created the “reverse topic” concept.

#51

I find it very interesting to trace the lineage of Buddhism from Theraveda, through Mahayana, to Vajrayana, to Zen. Buddhism has a way of taking on the shape of its container, so to speak, to some degree. Each new culture adds to and takes away from the traditions involved in its practice.

While there may be depths of any tradition that are simply not accessible to those who were not born to it, I have found it quite possible to pass through the religions of the world and learn what I can from them. I don’t feel this is appropriation until I turn around and say I am the expert in what I have learned. Clearly this cannot be the case given my tourist status.

Americans have existed in such a melting pot of cultures for so long (with uneven respect for the origins of said cultures) that it can often become difficult for us to identify this type of appropriation when it occurs. I find the antidote to this confusion is to learn more about the roots of the traditions in question. When we settle for “new age” re-packaging, we are accepting another tourist’s picking and choosing of their opinion of the greatest hits. Maybe a band’s Greatest Hits album is the first one you buy, but you wouldn’t want to stop there?

So, it becomes a process of ever-further-humbling, as the more you learn, the more you realize you have yet to learn. As your wisdom grows, so too, often your respect for the traditional roots of that wisdom may grow. Appropriation never comes from a place of respect for wisdom. If you are coming from that place, you need not have fear.

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#52

I will look into this more thoroughly, I never really learnt about how this expansion of the buddhist influence happened. If you have any books or internet sources to read about it, it would be lovely.

Coming from France, which is in a very different way also some kind of melting pot (although many people nowadays try to re-establish the idea of a never moving national identity) and having discussed with Americans about our respective relation with foreign culture and with our own roots, I find it very interesting to see how our ways differ on that precise point. I live in a neighbourhood that has existed for more than a thousand years and I find it, among other things, plays a great part in how I interact with foreign cultures. I guess, here again, the empty bowl metaphor holds many answers.

On a different view about this, I have been listening to A LOT of Gagaku recently. If find it one of the most refined music I ever heard. It’s not “sacred” music, although I’m not sure the distinction is as important in Japanese tradition as it is in western, but I have this feeling it is deeply rooted in Zen. It’s kind of naïve, but it has a lot of silences in it, and I think that says a lot. Well, that’s all.

Love

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#53

We have such a wealth of sources to draw from, but this is really not a bad starting point:

As a European, you may find this page to be of particular interest:

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#54

Also, this website says that Gagaku is the Japanese reading of the Chinese characters for that style of music, and that it entered Japan from China at the same time as Buddhism. The article doesn’t establish a direct correlation but I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re onto something.
When I was studying a piece of electronic music in school that was written by a living composer, my teacher encouraged me to try writing to the composer for more info. Maybe there’s a gagaku scholar somewhere you can contact if you’re very curious? Or maybe the list of links at the bottom of the Wikipedia article on Gagaku?

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#55

I used to collect translations of the Tao Te Ching. My two favorites are the Stephen Mitchell @kbit mentions and one by Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English.

#56

I agree entirely. This is not unique to Buddhism as a religion (witness the history of Christianity), but has created an exquisitely beautiful tapestry of philosophy and insight through waves and branches of elaboration and stripping-down. In this context, I observe with baited breath the flowering of Buddhism in the United States: what is sometimes derided as “buffet Buddhism” I see as the de- and re-construction of these ancient truths.

More on-topic, Zen, which I hear as valuing more stripped-down approaches to being and emphasizing direct experience, influences me primarily in my practice: being present, listening to my inner sense of “right” artistic course and choice, helping me catch myself being intellectual/reasoning when trying to make art and reground myself having caught it. My technical skills as a musician are grossly attenuated from the modest levels I had attained as a young man, so attention to the art of what I make, which my experiences with Zen helped me hone, are my best asset and I cherish them as such.

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#57

Google translate tells me the 雅 in gagaku, 雅楽, is “elegant”. 楽 is part of the word for music (音楽 ongaku) and instrument (楽器 gakki), although 楽 is also the character for “fun” (楽しい tanoshii) and “easy” (楽 raku).

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#58

“You must take the two characters birth-death and paste them on your forehead, and demand yourself a clear understanding of this matter. If you just follow the crowd and team up with them, killing time just making noise, one of these days the old Judge Of Hells will calculate the tab for your meals.”

From “The Chan Whip Anthology.”

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#59

Ho Shan imparted some words saying “Cultivating study is called ‘learning.’ Cutting off study is called ‘nearness.’ Going beyond these two is to be considered real going beyond.”

A monk came forward and asked, “What is ‘real going beyond’?” Shan said, “Knowing how to beat the drum.”

Again he asked, “What is the real truth?” Shan said, “Knowing how to beat the drum.”

Again he asked, “Mind is Buddha’ – I’m not asking about this. What is not mind and not Buddha?” Shan said, "Knowing how to beat the drum.

Again he asked, “When a transcendent man comes, how do you receive him?” Shan said, “Knowing how to beat the drum.”

From “Blue Cliff Record.”

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#60

Shunryu Suzuki Roshi: Sound and Noise

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#61

Gagaku is essentially descended from, or considered a part of the more ancient form of music & dance “kagura”. Kagura was (and still is) performed on stages within shrine complexes and was initially considered a method of summoning gods & spirits, so I’d say gagaku/kagura is a product of Shintoism (and thus probably can be considered “sacred” music, although gagaku was essentially performed for the Emperor and so is likely less sacred than kagura), and only vaguely related to Buddhism (if at all) as a result of the ‘fusion’ of Shinto and Buddhist practices that has happened in Japan over the centuries.
I’m also really interested in this idea of stillness and silence in gagaku though - I spent some time studying it here in Tokyo and find it really interesting to talk about with gagaku musicians I’ve had the opportunity to become friends with. At a very basic level Shintoism is based around the idea that gods & spirits live in trees, rocks, mountains and other natural things, and shrines were constructed initially as a way for villagers to acknowledge that certain spaces are “sacred” and are occupied by a multitude of spirits. They are incredibly dignified spaces that seem removed from the human world, and as things like clapping wood sticks together, ringing large bells and clapping while praying in front of deified shrines are thought to be ways of “calling” gods down from above, I’d say the opposite of sound making might also pretty important within shrine complexes so as not to disturb the congregation of spirits.
With regard to traditional Japanese instruments used in gagaku like the sho & biwa and their inherent philosophical characteristics, the composer Toru Takemitsu’s writings are really illuminating - there is a great English translation of some of his essays called Confronting Silence.

The closest thing maybe to Zen-related music would be something like “shomyo”, Buddhist chanting, I think. When I think about “zen” in music what instantly comes to mind is silence, but what is silence anyway? Doing menial repetitive tasks like raking pebble gardens is also considered zen practice, as I understand it to largely be about emptying the mind, so I often think that long, drone-like music, such as ambient music, might get us pretty close to what could be thought of as Zen.
I find it all great food for thought!

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#62

Or maybe that which is both music and not-music…

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#63

For those looking for things to read, I’m a fan of Brad Warner. He is a punk-rock bassist turned zen monk. I’ve read three of his books: “Hardcore Zen”, “Sit Down and Shut up”, and “Don’t be a Jerk”. One of the things he is really good at is providing very clear no-nonsense explanations of Zen practice and philosophy.

“Hardcore Zen” is a great starting book to read alongside the classics like “Zen Mind, Beginners Mind”.

The “Don’t Be a Jerk” book is his translation of Dogens Shobogenzo. It’s a great read for people who want to plunge into the philosophy. In addition to the translations, he has an introduction for each section where he talks about the meaning behind the translations. He also points you in the direction of other more classic translations.

“Sit Down and Shut Up” is like the follow-up to “Hardcore Zen”. I remember liking it, but to be honest, I don’t remember much of it.

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