#61

OTOH, what if Moog and others added support for monome in their iOS apps and quite a few more monomes were sold?

Also, technically, if you used MIDI notes, it would span all the notes, not just the bass notes.

Not really, and I’m really trying to understand. Doing MIDI on macOS, iOS, and Linux is super easy. Maybe it gets a little harder to do low level DIY stuff? But seems like writing little wrappers for the popular platforms is easy.

With the approach I’m describing, pretty much the entire setup process for monome would go away (no installing serialosc and the ensuing troubleshooting). Support in Max/Pd is immediate.

#62

this requires a fixed behavior / default for a monome grid, though. this instrument/controller is not a keyboard. you can make it a keyboard, if that’s what you need, but the core essence of the grid is its completely (and unparalleled) open-ended (re-)definition.

5 Likes
#63

Again, this isn’t turning monome into a fixed controller. It retains full generality.

I fully understand and appreciate the concept of the monome as an open-ended controller.

#64

alright, you continue to cherry-pick points to respond to. not once have i disagreed with the notion that it would make sense to allow the monome grids to operate in different device modes. fine and great.

but, there are a lot of grids in the world already. they have FTDI chips and will never be MIDI devices.

i really doubt that a HW/FW revision on the level you’re talking about is gonna happen.

if one was going to make a monome grid right now, today in 2018, from scratch, and knowing everything we now know about the 2018 market, sure. it would have a LUFA stack or something. regardless of what the frigging push does, it would also make sense to me to embed some controller logic given that kind of investment in HW/FW stack. it leads to complicated decisions and at that point i think to fit with the “monome philosophy” it would want to be a fully scriptable controller. i’d happily work on that.

if you want to talk about that, let’s talk about it. constructively and not nit-picking and second-guessing decisions made 12 years ago in an utterly different environment and for personal creative reasons.

Maybe it gets a little harder to do low level DIY stuff?

YYEEESSS thank you. i am talking about bare metal devices where we have to roll our own USB host code.

But seems like writing little wrappers for But seems like writing little wrappers for the popular platforms is easy.

dude. using USB-CDC is easy everywhere, absolutely everywhere except god damn iOS. this doesn’t make CDC a bad engineering decision.

let me also make it clear that i work on iOS all the time. i do DSP middleware for hearing aids and VOIP stacks. this includes MFi devices.

4 Likes
#65

gotcha – I think my reads on your responses aren’t on-point, apologies!

my response was just to suggest that the device should not assume anything about how an artist intends to use it with the thing it’s plugged into – but that the software that an artist would wish to control should do the heavy lifting to translate what the grid naturally operates through.

I’m also not a developer – I’m curious what the convo would look like if the question is flipped to “what does it take for an iOS app to support a monome grid?”

2 Likes
#67

I can answer that! It’s practically impossible because iOS is so locked down. It’s unfortunate, but that’s how it is. Much easier for a monome to support iOS.

#68

ios is software, grids are hardware, so categorically: no it’s not.

iOS app developers like yourself should be petitioning apple to support a USB-CDC interface! they can do this any time they choose.

1 Like
#69

I’m certainly not trying to cherry pick. I really do come in good faith.

Hardware can evolve, right? I’m looking toward the future.

Hmm, level of your hostility is rising. I might need to leave this thread.

#70

Not to muddy the waters further, but I strongly expect the future to be wireless. Given the relatively low bandwidth of most monome osc traffic I don’t see this being an issue.

(See Roli)

Bring on the wireless, rechargeable grid :slight_smile:

#71

Please don’t. It’ll all come good in the end. This is a useful discussion.

2 Likes
#72

Currently working on USB host integration on an embedded project with the Monome Grid and Launchpad and I concluded (from a consumer pov) that I’d take (osc) serial, over usb midi anytime. The launchpads have serious midi bandwidth issues and a very confusing sysex API.

1 Like
#73

Gotta be sure you’re blaming the right thing there.

#74

i apologize, not actually trying to be hostile. that was a real suggestion - iOS is the bottleneck, and it should chage. the way for it to change is for developers to complain to apple. they’ve listened before and will do so again.

i am trying to give real, honest answers to the question of “why.” they are not always technical but also situational. the responses i’m getting are extremely selective. importantly, monome is not one of the many companies (mostly in the bay area, seems like) that is primarily interested in scaling with the iOS install base.

seriously, @tayholliday / @audulus, if you want to have a productive discussion here, we have to get beyond this kind of thing:

and start responding to some actual suggestions and criticisms. like, we don’t actually want to build a new grid that isn’t backward compatible. like, how about a smart HW adapter or service layer that works around the OS limitations instead of requiring brand new everything else.

3 Likes
#75

Cool! Yeah, there was a talk by ROLI about how they did the Blocks. Definitely a lot of implementation complexity there. Seeing if I can find the talk.

Edit: here’s the talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lawj6GbkK2I

1 Like
#76

Thx for that.

Sadly my Seaboard Block was DOA so I can’t yet comment how well it all works, but it certainly seems like the future.

As an aside I’m slowly trying to join my modular, monome and iOS worlds together into some elegant whole over these holidays, which will include Audulus in some way :slight_smile:

(Trying to avoid the expense of an ES-8 btw)

image
ED851E6E-CD26-4C9B-A110-A939233A5834.png1536×994 138 KB

???

2 Likes
#77

just arriving, so i first wanted to fully endorse @zebra (and his comments), who has witnessed and contributed hugely both technically and spiritually to this project since before its inception.

i’m fundamentally not interested in supporting iOS. i’m starting to stray from being interested in supporting MacOS. (most of you know my interest in windows has never existed, though i’ve burned huge amounts of my time trying to enable people to use it).

but i like the idea of people doing whatever they want! and honestly a super-tiny dongle that converts monome to usb-midi is a pretty sweet suggestion. it’s so easy, and the hardware so unobtrusive. you could integrate external powering as i doubt your iphone wants to power a grid. of course i’m not going to make this thing, but our serial source code has always been open source.

additional huge agreement to @Dewb for the precise insight on the moment in technology 12 years ago!

edit: and yes seems trivial for apple to add CDC. but i understand that the thought of even asking feels like asking our gov’t for legit healthcare. :slight_smile: which is why linux is so (almost absurdly) liberating and exciting.

24 Likes
#78

re: norns to ios. norns can do OSC to remote hosts, and BT-midi no problem. it’s designed to create interactions with grids/etc with simple scripting (lua) that then communicate with less-programmable midi stuff (like synths).

8 Likes
#79

Sheesh man don’t beat me up! I come in peace!

Ok, that’s cool, backwards compatibility is a legit consideration. But let’s not act like hardware can’t evolve and improve.

#80

Ok, not trying to beat you up but I feel like we’re talking past each other and I dunno what that’s about.

I guess I just don’t think midi is an “evolution” here, compared to an extensible data format on top of a generic transport layer.

That said, I basically agree with @TheTechnobear that yeah, transport layer is not fundamental to the device. But it matters when you invoke product design concepts like “plug and play.” Very significant!

I’m totally serious though: apple should have a way to support CDC and HID devices. It should require a permissions key of course. If everyone with an app developer license in this forum said something, and if we suggest that this is yet another way in which android can eat their lunch, they really will listen.

In the meantime - seriously, lets work out what a good bus-powered adapter might look like. Give it some controller logic so it actually is plug+play. Let it support arbitrary diy devices using slipOSC. Does this appeal?

9 Likes
#81

I started hacking on something this afternoon, but just ran outta gas… so will circle back. :grinning:

What’s a canonical link for slipOSC? This is a year or so since it was last updated

2 Likes