Make Noise Mimeophon

[FLORINS]

Is everyone referring to the same noise/character/issue? Idk if MN response above was addressing the noise floor present when the unit is set fully Dry (the “Live” side)… I didn’t even notice this noise until it was described here and I went looking for it. It begins around 3k and rises up to 20k with a sharp spike around 12k (this is at roughly -80dB when taking the Mimeo direct into my ES-8). I doubt this noise was meant as a feature but I’m not sure it’s a flaw exactly either. Maybe more like design compromise they figured would be fine for most users? That being said if you are using the Mimeo in a way where you are crushing the signal with it set more towards dry then I certainly could see this being an issue… Dry vs Wet images attached showing the difference in noise floor. I think my findings are similar to @Starthief from earlier in the thread.

[Joseph]

That’s pretty high in upper frequency range for a single non-acoustic source. On bus, no.

As many here said including you, gain staging does help, for obvious reasons.

The gating algorithm is also a problem, though, as others pointed out. I’d prefer to do my own gating.

Anyway, the wet signal it is far less noticeable to the ear so full wet in a vca mixer is fine.

[FLORINS]

I tend to use it more fully wet with an aux/return setup and I hadn’t noticed it but it’s definitely there. Depending on the internal signal flow idk if this noise is present at the input and also being fed into the delay line?

[Starthief]

I think there are two noise issues: one is a very narrow band, high frequency constant noise, which rises JUST SLIGHTLY when the mix is dry.

Here’s an input in my audio interface with nothing connected, and an 18dB boost in the DAW:

And here’s Mimeophon with no input, same gain settings, mix 100% wet:

And 100% dry:

The difference is pretty subtle, and neither is audible at a reasonable monitoring level. And that big spike is easy to filter out, and it’s constant regardless of input.

Here’s my Xaoc Tallin with no input and the same gain settings:

And with a 100Hz sine from an E352 into the input, the knob set about 9 o’clock (whisper quiet but audible):

And now running that through Mimeophon at 100% wet:

And 100% dry:

The noise is certainly audible, as a “tape hiss” sort of thing. For whatever reason, going to Dry on the Mimeophon knob makes it worse. However, this is with a quiet input signal and an 18dB boost inside the DAW. Let’s remove the boost but turn up the VCA until the sine is back to -60dB:

Mimeophon 100% wet, but no post-Mimeophon boost:

And 100% dry:

I’m not hearing the hiss here, just the quiet sine.

So yeah, there are two different noises going on with Mimeophon, but I don’t find either of them is a barrier to anything musical…

[Joseph]

But what happens when you use your Natural Gate, not a constant sine?
Quiet dynamic sounds are still an issue, as is the gating algorithm.

Anyway, that level of high frequency SNR is really not very good for a non-acoustic source, and people are reasonable to complain about it. Especially that it’s so present in the dry.

Personally I find filtering noise always messes with something - you lose a bit of dynamic presence, and you have to dither again. Even with a good program like Izotope RX. Really that should not be required for an isolated channel.

[shiddyunzo]

1. dry
2. wet

the noise floor on my system is normally at ~-95-100dB

[Joseph]

What is the plot of your interface with just modular output to the line input, bypassing mimeophon? That will give fuller picture.

edit: see you basically answered question, but a plot is helpful.

[Joseph]

To give an idea of good noise performance these days.

Sound Devices MixPre-6

-130dBV (-128dBu) max (A-weighting, gain=76dB, 150 ohm source impedance)

RND Shelford channel has

“Main Out @ unity gain -100.9dBu
-6dB Out @ unity gain -106.6dBu
+30dB gain (Main Out) -91.37dBu
+66dB Gain (Main Out) -64.1dBu
Equivalent Input Noise -121.37dBu”

And John Hardy M-1

• E.I.N., 20Hz - 20kHz Unweighted:
  • • 150 Ohm source: -129 dBU
  • • 0 Ohm source: -132 dBU

Both the MixPre-6 and John Hardy are as good as it gets. More practically, the Shelford with cranked gain is about the level we’re talking about here. Also the Shelford has more higher frequency noise hiss than the Hardy or SD (speaking from experience), but again only with the gain cranked. It’s not just noise level, but noise content that makes the noise noticeable.

Even though we don’t know the gain specs of the Mimeophon, we can still figure out that the noise level is roughly equivalent to 54-60dB of gain at -120dBu EIN spec. So the Mimeophon has a higher EIN than -120dBu, assuming there is not 54db of gain being added to the dry signal.

Without surmising, this noise level is something I’d expect to accumulate from channels on a mixer bus, or from a bunch of microphones, or an old FET compressor, not on a single non-acoustic dry/mix fx channel in this day and age.

They did update the Erbe verb to have a much lower noise floor, so here’s hoping it’s possible.

[Starthief]

@Joseph

But what happens when you use your Natural Gate, not a constant sine?
Quiet dynamic sounds are still an issue, as is the gating algorithm.

200Hz triangle from E352 through Natural Gate, into my DAW, with DDMF MagicDeathEye compressor and Barricade limiter:

from Natural Gate through Mimeophon, 100% dry, otherwise the same:

Audible noise, not what I would consider a distracting amount – and it’s steady. While Natural Gate is advertised as “zero bleed”, in practice the only way I can get the noise gate to “pump” in this scenario is to turn the NG’s CV knob down so the gate doesn’t open fully (which means that high frequency area where the Mimeophon’s noise is, is pretty far clear of musical content) and the decay time short enough so that the long decay tail doesn’t keep the gate open.

Here’s a recording with that setup. The signal path is:

E352 -> Natural Gate -> Mimeophon -> DAW [CraveEQ high frequency rolloff, MagicDeathEye compressor, Barricade limiter]

At various times during the recording I bypass Mimeophon (via a mult and switching inputs in Bitwig Grid), and at various times I bypass or engage the EQ.

To me, only when I’m going through Mimeophon and have the EQ bypassed is there a noticeable difference. If I were using something like this in one of my actual recordings I’d probably jam it through some lo-fi tape plugins and noise everything up a bit And I’d have the CV turned up higher on NG so that it’s louder and brighter, and I’d probably have more decay time, and so the noise from Mimeophon would remain constant except perhaps during parts of the track where I’ve got no triggers going in. In which case I’d probably have muted the track… and also I wouldn’t be running through Mimeophon with the knob set to 100% dry the whole time, I’d be throwing some echoes on there.

[Joseph]

The Mimeophon gating effect is really quite bad. And what’s that squirrely fizzy sound? Sounds like interference from not properly shielded connections. I hate that sound lol. That’s happened to me a lot in live microphone setups, or guitar DI. Can be an absolute pain to track down. Check your lights for dimmers or whether your computer or mixer is too close to your interface. Modular of course unshielded and unbalanced is normal, but you may be able to get rid of it.

In short, I prefer a more pristine capture before I run through any lo-fi processing.

The NG i’d expect to be pristine on its own in this case. Actually I’ve found that it’s not always zero bleed either with certain sources if you need healthy level coming out of it. It’s just optimized for a certain source level to have zero bleed with the CTRL trimmer at unity.

[Starthief]

@Joseph

And what’s that squirrely fizzy sound?

There is still some noise when the Mimeophon and EQ are both engaged. Hey, I spent about 5 minutes putting this together during my lunch break. :shrug: And I’m kind of regretting having bothered, to be honest.

But if you’re referring to something you hear throughout the entire file, I can’t help you, because I honestly don’t hear it.

@Joseph

In short, I prefer a more pristine capture before I run through any lo-fi processing.

I find it irrelevant to the music I make. If I’m recording an Akemie’s Castle with its crusty OPL3 chips, or a Lyra-8 with its PT2399 delay pushed to the breaking point, and then I’m going to be processing it in Wavesfactory Cassette or Mishby or Chipcrusher or whatever… the fact that I didn’t use shielded cables is pretty much moot.

As long as I don’t have some nasty 60Hz hum or whine or a high noise floor that I don’t know where it’s coming from, it’s all good.

Overall, my point is: yes the Mimeophon has some noise. It’s not enough to matter in my normal usage. If you’re going to record quiet things in a very sparse mix, then you’ll hear it. If you hear it, maybe you’ll hate it and maybe you won’t. I don’t.

I was thinking about getting an Erica Pico BBD because the Mimeophon isn’t noisy enough

[Joseph]

I understand your preferences. I’m not saying you should share mine just describing my own point of view. You do whatever you want, obviously.

My point merely is the noise level is there and not up to pro audio standards, which can be a problem in certain situations. I would think it wouldn’t be so hard to design a dry path with a lower noise floor. We already have the solution of a wet fx bus, in any case.

The gating algorithm is there in dry signal and makes the problem worse, not better, as far as I’m concerned, as continuous noise is easier to deal with. All these things are obvious in your recording, otherwise I wouldn’t point them out.

Yes the fizzy noise is something else throughout the entire file, not from the Mimeophon or plugin eq I don’t think. Like I said, sounds like analog interference, the kind that would ruin an acoustic ensemble recording.

Just because you don’t care doesn’t mean others don’t. Again I love bbd delays as I said above, I like noise as a creative choice (btw I really like your full song recordings!), but this sort of noise in a dry signal path is simply not a desirable quality, however you slice it. The overall noise is something to mitigate, through the solution of a wet fx bus, in any case.

[Starthief]

@Joseph

Yes the fizzy noise is something else throughout the entire file

Ah… if I crank the volume of that recording up beyond where I’d normally listen, then yes, I hear it.

After some experimenting: Natural Gate with no input and gate closed, through one of the analog connections to my audio interface, gives that noise. With the gate open, it picks up LFSR noise from the nearby Zorlon Cannon without patching it in. But if I go through the ES-6 instead, I just get some white noise at a slightly lower level. So yeah, probably due to unshielded cables.

I just never really noticed because of the noisy nature of my music, and I’m still not sure whether it matters to me. I kind of want to sample the noise and use it on purpose

[Joseph]

Honestly, I think your music is good so you should do whatever works. When I was younger, I didn’t give a shit about any of this stuff and I wrote a lot more music with a RAT pedal and piece of garbage solid state amp. I was happier. You should sample the noise and use it on purpose! The noise itself doesn’t sound bad on its own, it’s more the noise gating I don’t like. I prefer to do that myself, not have it imposed on me.

I had similar thing happen to me with NG and nearby module.

[naxuu]

I will revise my earlier comment and say that yeah, the gating doesn’t sound especially good or desirable for me. I experimented with my own Mimeophon and the gating was awkward enough that it stood out in a dry mix. I think I simply never had these problems because I’ve never been going 100% dry for Mimeophon when it’s in my signal path. Most of the time it’s 50-100% wet, with liberal swaths of halo and/or color, and at those settings the noise is a feature, not a bug (more akin to the pleasing imperfections of tape hiss). Fully dry, it’s not all that pleasing of a sound, but based on my uses this is going to be a non-factor for me; mileage will vary depending on others’ uses and needs. (The effects loop trick with stackcables is easy to implement and good to know in general, thanks for that)

[Joseph]

Yes, it’s unfortunate. But the wet signal to vca mixer is a solution, and what one would do for a rack unit.

This is the only delay in eurorack I’ve heard that can compare to a good rack delay, in terms of tone.

[naxuu]

Indeed; the module sounds so good to me, and satisfies so much of what I want better than any similar module in its class, that it’s admittedly hard to know if I’m just making ad hoc justifications based on my love for it, rather than more unbiased ones. I mean, I definitely think I’m listening and thinking critically, but everyone thinks that about themselves, right?

[MisterMoleyMole]

Has anyone managed to get this looping functionality to work well?

Creating Loops w/ the Make Noise Mimeophon Eurorack Module Pt. 4

The dreaded noise also plays a part in that functionality failing too on my unit.

If you get the loop going and your not using hold like in the video, and with the repeats knob fully open. With every repeat of the loop, the same audio just gets thrown back into the buffer every cycle, along with a load more hiss, getting louder and louder and noisier and noisier.

I have tried turning my gain down to -3, which doesn’t help.

I am beginning to think there maybe a load of faulty units out there, and everything seems very quiet when you go searching for answers

[Starthief]

I do feel like the input gain could go down more, and wish it was a knob.

Hold I think would be much better if it didn’t cause Repeats to change its meaning. I want to be able to switch smoothly from “real” (almost-)infinite repeats to Hold, but if I do that I never get the results I want.

I love the general character of it and the wild things it’ll do with zone 0 though (or dipping in and out of zone 0), and I think it’s the most fun delay I’ve ever had. I’m curious how my feelings about it might change once the E520 arrives though.

[casualdecay]

I use my DLD like this more or less no problem. Doesn’t have the most headroom if you keep adding additional layers at 100% feedback but that’s my only compliant. Because I have a DLD I haven’t really tried this on my Mimeophon. I will say that that the video example is at 100% wet, which might be why no noise is added.