Mapping VSTs to Controllers--does anyone else have this problem?

dude · 2023-03-09T16:10:32.906Z

i like ableton live push ( i still use v1 happily ) as it allows for full navigation of available parameters of each device / channel / fx etc via button press and knob turns. it doesn’t remove all mouse work for me but it does in my case usually solve mapping questions in practice.

realistically there’s no way for software to read our minds (at least in current future-present) to auto control only what we want out of so many options so i’d just like to be able to bop around and control what i want easily. and of course there are macros and savestates to keep something if you want to streamline or reuse a nice patch.
and nothing can replace simple time spent in sound design, setup and seeking prep for stuff that’s personally/musically useful.

snkhydrox · 2023-03-09T16:27:52.216Z

My biggest gripe with this problem is that it’s often too tedious to do a lot of mapping manually. Basically all VSTs (or even stock DAW plugins) require mapping stuff using a mouse. Navigating all the various interfaces of different VSTs it’s always a pain for me. I searched for a long time a way to script all this stuff, but it looks like VST is just a graphical environment.

anon45924993 · 2023-03-09T16:37:09.511Z

You can definitely access vst parameters programmatically.

bharris22:

To me, the time consuming part is mapping the parameters. This is where Kore 2 does a great job, mapping essentially every parameter to 8 different knobs across multiple pages. At that point, I can simply delete any mappings that aren’t useful to me, once I have tried them out, and rearrange those that remain in a way that is useful to me.

I wonder how Kore 2 compares to the NI Komplete Kontrol stuff in terms of usability. Quite a bit more compact, so that’s a plus.

snkhydrox · 2023-03-09T16:40:23.041Z

Sure, but it’s still something that you need to build yourself. There’s no off-the-shelves tool that does this stuff, especially in DAW-related ecosystems, that’s why I’m building my own M4L stuff

JES · 2023-03-09T17:42:41.460Z

snkhydrox:

it’s still something that you need to build yourself.

This is precisely the issue for me. I’m not as good an instrument designer as the professionals. I’ve done the macro mapping thing before, but that means making all patch decisions ahead of time. Maybe I’ve just been ruined by modular synths and hardware interfaces.

unicity · 2023-03-09T19:39:25.399Z

JES:

How am I supposed to decide ahead of time? How have others solved or negotiated this issue?

I rarely decide ahead of time, but rather once the music making process has begun.

When I have decided ahead of time, it’s usually for instruments I use the most often. Operator for example, I have mapped to a MIDI FIghter Twister in such a way that each row of 4 encoders represents one operator. Pushing the encoder engages a secondary parameter. So each row is:

Level|Velocity - Coarse|Fine - Attack|Decay - Sustain|Release

…and this premapped instance of Operator always opens in my default set.

Another page of the MIDI Fighter Twister is kind of a generic set, with each row representing 8 params, which I then try to group logically for whatever instrument I’m using. It keeps things somewhat predictable for me:

Row 1 - 8 oscillator-ish params
Row 2 - 8 filter-ish params
Row 3 - 8 envelope-y params
Row 4 - 8 whatever params

It’s far from perfect, but honestly I made peace with this whole issue a while back when I just decided that it’s part of the cost of the (often extraordinary) convenience of using software.

n9n9n9 · 2023-03-09T22:44:30.438Z

yes, this.

My main instruments have preset remote pages that I can swiftly switch between on my midi fighter. Anything else that I want to grab control of I can set to a knob on a remote page in bitwig in two clicks. My favorite intruments have dozens of remote pages that I made that serve various purposes: one will have all the osciallator freq fine tune controls mapped, one will be a mixer between all the osciallators, etc. I can have the same control mapped to many pages that way.

The impulse to control is the right one though. Once I get going I often half close my laptop screen and just play without any visual aspect. That feels right.

Here’s a control setup for my looper/feedback matrix:

image2516×534 129 KB

There are 11 pages of remotes for this that cover all the controls and then some special cases. I made these all pretty much on the fly while I was playing. It is easy to switch between them without touching my computer from the controller. Then to the right of the remotes you see all the macros that I have set up. These you click on, but they represent all the settings that I want access to for the larger preset, which has 22 vst plugins in it and a custom grid patch that I made that controls the whole thing. When I use this I never open up any plugins or other views. In bitwig, macros are able to be mapped to multiple controls with seperate curves and ranges for each mapping. If you look at the setup above you’ll see a lot of trim macros… these are set so that their whole sweep is a small fraction of a control’s… this way you can set the course control with one knob on the midifigher and then fine tune with another, etc. And since macros can be one to many, I can make a trim knob that can increase or decrease the feedback setting across multiple plugins relative to the different settings that those controls may have. Remotes are always a 1:1. So I make macros for the flexibility and then assign those to remotes. Also in Bitwig anywhere you can map a control you can easily insert a modulator: LFP, step sequencer, envelope, audio sidechain, CV in, and a bunch more. And all these features are very well implemented… not just “you can do this or that” – it is a joy to use in practice.

JES · 2023-03-10T02:50:21.178Z

Out of curiosity, what controllers are you using with Bitwig? I have found Live easier to map to controllers (no script needed) but I do like Bitwig’s modulators.

n9n9n9 · 2023-03-10T03:03:40.824Z

if you use Bitwig, you gotta use the drivenbymoss generic flexi script. unless you have a controller that drivenbymoss wrote a specific script for… like the NI komple kontrols and several others.

It is a wonder of a script. Takes a bit to get it going and then that’s all you need.

I have used a Beringer BCF motorized fader controller with this script for several years and I really liked it. As you flip between pages and plugins and tracks with the buttons the faders SNAP into position to properly reflect the state of whatever controls are in focus. But then I broke the BCF and decided to try something else… I got the MIDI fighter because of the size and because it has internal “page flipping” of the controls… which made me think that I could do my normal controls, then a page or two for the mixer, a page for my master buss eq… things like that.

I haven’t used it long but I really like it so far.

With drivenbymoss and a little time I doubt you’d ever find yourself missing Live’s controller mapping scheme again. Just my opinion.

Starthief · 2023-03-10T03:41:55.614Z

I don’t try to maintain any sort of consistent control schemes, it’s all ad-hoc, part of my patch-from-scratch approach.

A lot of my software synth patching is just drones, so they probably get a fader or two on the Sweet Sixteen, or expression pedal. Maybe a footswitch or two for transposing.

If I’m going to play a softsynth beyond that, I’ll use the Launchpad Pro mk3 to control it. Almost always I’ll use pressure for dynamics, and maybe something like filter, folding, timbre etc along with that, maybe also a vibrato/tremolo sort of modulation. That’s usually all, though sometimes I’ll also add a fader or expression pedal to some parameter as well – on the synth or an effect.

I tried the DrivenByMoss script and found I’d rather just use it as a generic MIDI controller. I understand there’s now a script specifically for the LPP mk3 that exactly replicates its functions as labeled on the device, but I haven’t tried it yet. I’m not really doing any sequencing in Bitwig outside the grid. I really just like the LPP to play notes or to sequence with. I don’t have anything with a piano-style keyboard anymore, unless the buttons on West Pest count (and they don’t)

loma · 2023-03-10T04:26:42.212Z

lua:

Instead of mapping controls to parameters, we should have snapshots of states and use controls to morph between them.

I agree. I’ve been very into this approach when I’ve had easy access to it, i.e., Audiomulch, Tim Exile’s SLOR and SLOO instruments, apeSoft apps on iOS—though with less interesting results on those last ones.

I’m curious if anyone else has suggestions of state-morphing systems, whether it be simply inside a single instrument or across multiple plugins or a whole DAW. Particularly interested in Ableton, Bitwig, or iOS solutions.

And to the main point of the thread, I’m drawn to this approach too because, at least for me, it lends itself to more interesting and performative results. I have controllers that can take advantage of multiple pages, but I’m not keen on paging through all that business when it comes to playing live or even in the “studio” for that matter. The more drastic changes I can make with the fewest knobs/faders is my ideal environment. If state-morphing is the game, then the need to assign a bajillion controls goes away—I think.

n9n9n9 · 2023-03-10T06:14:12.179Z

bitwig has a lot of things that can do this, but nothing that will specifically morph between snapshots of instrument presets. I used to mess with this with max4live and… i wasn’t every really inspired by the results… a lot of parameters are not continuous (filter type, osc type, mod matrix assignments) which makes for non-continuous morphing and the results tended to be mushy, like patch randomization, which has never really been my favorite.

but in Bitwig you’ve got the crossfader modulator, the x-y modulator and some others that allow you to map a bunch of controls to the same 1d or 2d fader. These things are easy to sleep on but are incredibly powerful in just the ways that you seem to be describing.

Bitwig also allows you to map as many macros and modulators to the same controls as you would like. So you can have LFOs, xfaders, knobs and whatever else you want all modulating as many controllers as you would like as little or much as you’d like with custom curves per modulation… so it supports one to many patterns and many to one patterns of modulation and control of parameters.

TanaBarbier · 2023-03-10T07:01:31.133Z

loma:

I’m curious if anyone else has suggestions of state-morphing systems

Not really a system per se but I love fm8 for that. It could be better be it still is very powerful.
Edit : Also Alchemy !

lua · 2023-03-10T07:52:27.237Z

New Sonic Arts’ Freestyle will have a snapshot morphing feature in its next version.

edit.

I used to mess with this with max4live and… i wasn’t every really inspired by the results… a lot of parameters are not continuous (filter type, osc type, mod matrix assignments) which makes for non-continuous morphing and the results tended to be mushy, like patch randomization, which has never really been my favorite.

I created a simple snapshot + morph functionality in max using s4m. Best time in my life. (I didn’t continue because of how hacky it felt).
The workflow is not supposed to include much randomization, nor be vexed much by stepped parameters. You play around with your patch as usual and take snapshots at any points of interest. A patch comes to be a space of related states that can be traversed, not one grand default state, fraying at each change of parameter. A patch itself becomes decentralized, modular, and a musical element.

You don’t do it randomly, but easily combine the two sides of creation: experimentation and intention. Instead of keeping your both feet onto which parameters to map, you’re entirely free to
(1) just focus entirely on your interaction with the device,
(2a) think musically about points you want to reach (like in animation programs), embed states into the fabric of the musical piece (section A starts with snapshot A. Now that you have this peg, you can go explore what you want to come before it and after it),
(2b) be bold and do grand gestures and break your comfort zones, knowing you’re safe from all the nonsense organization,
(3) orient your expectation in interaction with the device towards musical direction and change, not an end state.

bharris22 · 2023-03-10T14:00:10.874Z

This looks great, but don’t you first have to map all of the parameters in a particular VST? I understood the OP to be looking for the most efficient way to begin twisting knobs without all of the initial mapping work.

TanaBarbier:

loma:

I’m curious if anyone else has suggestions of state-morphing systems

Not really a system per se but I love fm8 for that. It could be better be it still is very powerful.
Edit : Also Alchemy !

And Kore 2

JES · 2023-03-10T14:28:55.434Z

Starthief:

a fader or two on the Sweet Sixteen, or expression pedal.

Do you send these in using Bitwig’s CV input device, or another way? CV input device would presumably get around all these scripting issues. Then I just need a girnormous panel of hardware CV controls. Dedicated to software control.

loma:

apeSoft apps on iOS—though with less interesting results on those last ones.

I actually did a whole record with DensityM4L in the early 2010s (a predecessor of iDensity) using the “hypervectoral morph” or whatever he called it feature as my main control and it was loads of fun. The computer trackpad was my only controller.

bharris22:

understood the OP to be looking for the most efficient way to begin twisting knobs without all of the initial mapping work.

Yes, this is my actual problem. Though I have to say even though a lot of the posts don’t address my specific issue, it has been wonderful to hear how other people deal with this general question, and what their issues (like morphing) may be.

But, yes, speaking only for myself, this is where it all falls apart from me. I love patching from scratch as part of my solo music making with synths, and I would use VSTs a whole lot more if I were able to more fully integrate them into that mindset without using my middle-aged eyes to squint at the tiny controls on the screen, and then oh shit, there’s an update.

For instance: I love the Bitwig modular mindset. I tried using it with my Linnstrument in one of my bands. But one of the issues I have had in the past is this: Bitwig is constantly being updated. This is a good thing, right? But then the script for my MFT needs to be updated, which a) may or may not happen on the same schedule because it’s being done by a volunteer whose time is not compensated by Bitwig’s update plan b) has occasionally introduced new bugs into the control scheme and c) may mean I have to re-do some of the mapping work I’ve done in projects. Frustration with this cycle led me to give up on using the MFT and Bitwig a few years back – it was 2018 or 2019 last time I tried. In contrast, in Live, you just map it directly in the program, set the parameter range, and you’re done.

Have I mentioned that I hate software troubleshooting? (I don’t like the hardware kind either).

@n9n9n9: how do you deal with this, or is it no longer an issue? Which of the apparently very many MFT scripts do you use?

loma · 2023-03-10T16:26:03.591Z

n9n9n9:

in Bitwig you’ve got the crossfader modulator, the x-y modulator and some others that allow you to map a bunch of controls to the same 1d or 2d fader.

n9n9n9:

Bitwig also allows you to map as many macros and modulators to the same controls as you would like.

I really need to start taking advantage of these capabilities. Thank you for the reminder.

TanaBarbier:

I love fm8 for that

Awesome. Thank you.

lua:

New Sonic Arts’ Freestyle will have a snapshot morphing feature in its next version.

I was completely unaware of this software, and if what you say is true, that’s awesome. Any idea when this version is coming?

JES:

I actually did a whole record with DensityM4L

I’m a big fan of all the apeSoft/Amazing Noises software. iDensity (and at some points, DensityM4L) has been a crucial part of my creative process for some years now. I just haven’t had too much success with the morphing pad—but that’s on me and probably gets back to the OP’s dilemma: assigning parameters. I wish you could isolate certain parameters for assignment to the morphing pad. And you can, in a way, my meticulously designing patches, but it’d be rad to not have to pay attention to certain changes, like in Audiomulch, where only assigned parameters become effected by the morphing grid. I also run into the issue that I like to assign volume for each granulator to faders, so when using the morphing pad, that gets all junked up. I wish I could just tell the morphing pad, “Ignore the volume parameter.”

Starthief · 2023-03-10T20:48:23.230Z

JES:

Starthief:

a fader or two on the Sweet Sixteen, or expression pedal.

Do you send these in using Bitwig’s CV input device, or another way? CV input device would presumably get around all these scripting issues. Then I just need a girnormous panel of hardware CV controls. Dedicated to software control.

MIDI CC over USB. Usually assigned via MIDI learn either to a Macro knob in a modulator slot, or to a Value knob in the grid.

trickyflemming · 2023-03-11T13:41:50.828Z

n9n9n9:

if you use Bitwig, you gotta use the drivenbymoss generic flexi script.

I agree. It’s an example of how most DAWs should be handling controllers.

The Bitwig remote page is really worth a dive if you’re having trouble getting the mappings that you want. To get to this view, click the 2x3 circle icon in the bottom left of a device, and then click the wrench icon at the top of the macro set:

image2074×1568 202 KB

So the Preset Pages are saved with the current preset and project. If you save the preset to your User Library, those Pages will stay. The Device Pages are global to all instances of the plugin and device. If there’s a plugin you use frequently and you’re always mapping the same controls over and over, create a page here and then click “Save and Apply”. This page will then be accessible to all instances of the plugin or device.

To go deeper, if you right click on a device, you get this menu:

image538×744 39.1 KB

Save as Default Preset saves a copy of all of the current settings, Pages, and Modulators to your Bitwig User Library. All new instances of the plugin or device will load that preset from the start. Let’s say you have a solid preset that has XY Mappings and other Modulators that are essential for control: create that preset once, and save it once. (Likewise, Save Preset To Library will save the preset to the User Library, but not make it the default)

In my setup, I have the Bitwig User Library point to a folder on my Dropbox. If I save any of these on one computer, they are accessible on all of my machines.

As a side note to Eurorack users, the Befaco VCMC is a CV->MIDI converter that has a dedicated control script setup in Bitwig to control Remote pages. With that, you can turn something like a Tetrapad, Planar, Catalyst, or whatever Euro controller you want into a very functional MIDI controller. I used the VCMC for a while and quite enjoyed it, but I ended up replacing it with the Der Mann mit der Maschine Droid. I’d recommend either depending on your price point and tolerance for diving in to tweaking.

listentoaheartbeat · 2023-03-11T13:52:36.838Z

I’ve circled back to trying the latest and greatest controllers for over two decades, only to realize each and every time that I actually really enjoy interfacing with the computer using keyboard and mouse. This goes hand in hand with an affinity to drawing automation curves and entering parameter values numerically.

I fully empathize with the fact that this is not for everyone. But to me it feels like a very direct way of translating my ideas into sound, especially when it comes to arranging and mixing music. Admittedly, it’s super cerebral and removes some of the bodily aspects of the music making experience. But I’ve never been able to achieve a high level of immediacy and spontaneity with controllers. I turn to my hardware instruments when I am looking for a more playful experience.

That being said, I am sure that with some commitment one can set up controllers in a way that is really intuitive. I think it just takes a lot of practice, and also restraint. A small selection of software instruments, custom assignments, and good ergonomics should go a long way. My good friend has invested a lot of time into his controller setup and his workflow has become fluent (using custom Live devices and multiple Novation Launch Controls). One day!