RME FireFace UFX+ can record and playback up to 76 of its 188 channels.

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Zoom R16 is a portable 16 track recorder that doubles as an audio interface. I think it is limited to 8 simultaneous tracks per recording but you can have 16 for a project / song. I don’t have any personal experience with it but its been on my radar for a while

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Looking for some advice…

As I stated earlier, I’m doing a lot of cleaning, organizing and rewiring. I need to consolidate some gear but ultimately want to make things more usable and comfortable. I’m trying to figure out the best, most ergonomic, long-term solution.

I have a few 500 series preamps that I use for micing acoustic instruments and vocals (will be adding some more eventually), a good number of outboard synths and drum machines, 3 different eurorack cases, some small desktop stuff, some outboard FX, and 3 48-point patchbays.

What is the best way to bring this all together?

My goals would be to have most everything wired up and ready to multitrack but my setup changes from time to time and I don’t want to have to tear everything down if/when I add something new to the setup. I want to sit down and be able to record in 30 seconds or so (would love to just hit a record button - see my post above re: converters that can also multitrack record the inputs). Basically, everything live, all the time.

My initial thoughts:

  • Use a small stage box to handle mic inputs to the outboard preamps
  • Preamps are normalled to converter line inputs at the patch bay (jury is still out on whether my converter/interface will change)
  • Synths and drum machines are normalled to another bank of converter inputs at the patchbay
  • Eurorack and desktop stuff would either go to a small, separate mixer with direct outputs or possibly another stage box - there are pros and cons both ways (stage box is much smaller and cheaper, mixer provides more flexibility)
  • Direct outputs of the mixer or the stage box are normalled to converter line inputs at the patch bay
  • Select and acquire a primary mixer to handle monitoring and OTB mixing duties - something like the SSL Six or X-Desk really appeal to me right now
  • All outboard handled at the patchbay and 500 series racks

Things I’m considering:

  • 16+ channels of converters either through Apollo 16, RME UFX+, or MOTU
  • SSL Six vs. X-Desk
  • Some small mixer with direct outputs
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I’ve also been re-designing/building out my studio, and selected the SSL Six as my core. A month in, I’m super happy with the Six from the studio-grade quality of the signal chain, to the enormous routing flexibility. It’s been a pleasure to use, and every component from the EQ to the compressors and pre’s have exceeded my expectations. I looked at the X-Desk, and decided that the Six’s capacity for analog summing 12 channels was enough, and I really wanted the goodies on the Six. I’d get a second Six before I bought an X-Desk.

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Your comments really summed up a lot of what I was thinking.

I don’t need to track more than 4-6 channels at a time even with 2 other instrumentalists with me. At least not right now.

The Six is appealing because for a little less than the price of a used X-Desk, I can still sum 12 channels of stems - almost as much as an X-Desk - and I’d get 3 nice preamps and the bus comp to work with. I also really really like that it incorporates DB25 connectors for all its i/o which makes all the routing happen easily at the patchbay.

However, the X-Desk is still on my list because I like the idea of all the switching it offers… really simplifying the transition from tracking to mixing and monitoring both. No built in EQ is a bit of a bummer but I could live without the extra preamps. Overall, jury is still out but I share your thoughts.

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So I’ve been very interested in nailing down an interface approach for every conceivable need and that would plausibly fill those needs for the bulk of a lifetime, or at least be amenable to maintenance, expansion, and upgrade over the course of such. My research in regard to choosing a computer along these same lines turned up an interesting find:

For my part, I would likely make use of such a thing for something like an RME Raydat and undoubtedly some other audio-related card. However, what I’m wondering is how that pricetag of $900 could be at all justified. There seem to be comparable enclosures, even among their own stock, priced far less, and the main difference I can see is that this one is rackmounted. Am I missing something? I mean, one could purchase a reasonably powerful and compact computer with two PCIe slots and TB3 expandability for little more. Is the rackmounting really so niche as to justify the mark-up? I would have assumed that the market for TB3->PCIe enclosures is already niche enough.

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Hi, wondering if someone with some experience with this interface may be able to help me solve the issue I am having. Very simply trying to get audio out of say channels 3&4 of the Motu, into Norns, then back into Ableton. The ins seem ok, but assigning the outs in Ableton to the Motu is not sending any signal. I’ve had it working before so not sure what’s going on. All is set right in Ableton preferences, but not seeing any output into Norns. I’m avoiding the Cuemix side of the Motu, as I don’t think that is needed for this and it confuses me? It must be a setting on the Motu. Any help much appreciated!

It’s been a while…

I think there’s something quirky about Motu’s numbering.

I could be wrong, but I think the preamps are what shows up as 1 and 2, in your DAW. On the back of the Ultraluge, (autocorrect, but i’ma leave it.) what says Outlut 1 and 2, will actually be 3 and 4 in your DAW. Displace the output numbers on the back to accommodate the preamps as 1 and 2.

Does that make any sense?

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Honestly, I’d check Cuemix just to see if outputs 3 and 4 are sending signal. If they aren’t, then it’s likely either an Ableton issue or a Motu problem. If CueMix indicates you’re outputting signal, try plugging the Motu output into another device (or really just plug a 1/4" heapdhone into the output and see if you hear something). Then it would be the Norns.
I haven’t used Ableton for a long time but I remember the output config being a bit of a pain… but if you’re certain the outputs are activated and the levels are up/not muted, then checking CueMix would be the next step in verifying the signal path…
As @MtL says, there is also the issue of output numbering. Ableton 1 and 2 are the main outs. Ableton 3 and 4 are labeled outputs 1 and 2 on the back of the ultralite.

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Gosh apologies, it was indeed the routing of the numbers being different between Ableton and Motu! Thanks!

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Welp friends, it has finally happened:

NSFW (j/k)

MOTU UltraLite mk3 you have served me valiantly over the years. Thousands (millions?) of hours of audio has been routed through your venerable 8 ins and 10 outs. For the last year or two I haven’t been able to launch your software, but still you were able to be selected as my interface. Alas, today was the end. I didn’t know just a few days ago was to be our last time together.

I love you MOTU UltraLite mk3.

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What happened? Mine is still working (I hope)! Why did it go bad?!?

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Is that perhaps just going into a Thunderbolt dock USB C port? I can generally get this same ridiculous adapter chain working as long as it is a thunderbolt 3 port at the end and not a USB C.

Many thunderbolt 3 docks I’ve run into have only a USB C/DisplayPort additional connector instead of an entire additional TB3 port.

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@eblomquist @nojay OH WOW. It was the adaptor. When I plugged it direct in it worked!!! This is the adaptor I’m using. Wowwwwwwww. So USB C != Thunderbolt 3. Interesting…

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I have a very similar setup to you and here’s what I do:

3 rows of 48pt patch bays
16ch converter
Rupert Neve summing mixer/panner

From the bottom:

Pb1, inputs: 8ch snake normals to input of 8 pres, output of 8 pres normals to input of my converter. Rest of this row is in/out of a Tascam syncaset 8ch cassette. 4 XLR taps directly to my converter for non-pre/no-color inputs, not via pb—just hanging tails.

Pb2 in/out of the box and summing: Line send/return from converter by way of Rupert neve summing mixer, Sum 1 & Sum 2 normalled to remaining 4inputs on converter, I/O for my favorite stereo bus compressor, I/O for Nagra IV-S.

Pb3 Effects and hardware: I/O for all the hardware compressors and EQs and delays etc as well as a Nakamichi Cr2A.

Converter AES out feeds a drawmer monitor controller.

That handles all the mixing desk stuff and record media (cassette multi and 2ch, 1/4” 2ch, computer).

My synth corner has the snake box: 8 ch in to PB1, 4 back out (from PB3). I can run stuff raw to the pres through this or, more commonly, I mix down to stems via SiX or a Tascam 8ch cassette mixer/recorder.

I have a plan for a patchbay for all my electro gear but haven’t committed to it yet.

The things which really make this work for me are:

The snake to bring my inputs where I need them (and the patchbay to flexibly route as I choose though honestly I rarely reroute as I like how the normals are set—but one thing I do often is route from snake to pre then patch a compressor in before the converter because I like compressing once before hitting the converter or tape etc).

The neve summing mixer absolutely solves my in-the-box/out-the-box style of mixing and processing. It’s useful for that even if you don’t go for the analog summing thing.

Drawmer monitor controller solves a ton of headaches with speaker selects, iPhone inputs, and some genuinely useful mix tools.

If you are only going 8ch in/out then you’d maybe plan on a different summing path or perhaps use the SiX to do both summing and monitoring. You’ll also have a lot more breathing room in your PB (room for more processors! :slight_smile:)

Let me know if any of this makes sense.

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So I decided I needed a schematic to help me make some long term decisions about where I was headed with all of this and exactly how much money it would take to get things setup and organized. It’s certainly a worthwhile exercise. In the end, I made some more decisions:

  • 3 snakes: one for mics, one for things on the left, one for things on the right.
  • A new interface is next: the basic problem I’m trying to solve is how to use the gear I have and track more than 2 or 3 instruments/vocals at a time - my limit is Preamps and channel count.
  • Apollo 8 is most likely the best fit: I get 4 more preamps and it ties into my current workflow with the Apollo Twin seamlessly.
  • I still need a mixer: for now, I’ll keep using my small A&H for “loose” patching - random table top stuff and quick routing. Still want an X-Desk. (I even worked out a way to chain the A&H output to the X-Desk summing using their linking system!)

In that spirit, here is a concept of how it all might fit together with an X-Desk. I even did analysis on all the cables needed to make sure I wasn’t going to have a huge investment in cabling that I can’t use down the road.

I realize this isn’t directly relevant to anyone, but it was useful for me to do this for my situation so wanted to share my ideas. Definitely open to feedback on whether anything in this plan doesn’t look right or “isn’t done” for whatever reason. I’m not a pro!

(Done in Google Sheets I might add which made it REALLY easy)

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Not to go too offtopic but this is a common misconception due to the connector format. They are indeed not at all the same.

Thunderbolt 3 is by far more capable and provides for a wider range of hardware possibilities and throughput. USB is simpler to implement and has some standards around behaviour that permit class based driverless behaviour which TB3 does not. They are targeted at different needs and optimized for different applications and markets. Sharing the connector is the only thing they have in common. For what it’s worth, DisplayPort did that with TB2 causing people to confuse those protocols too.

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They made a complete mess of that connector which can carry a variety of “partner mode” data including HDMI, DisplayPort, and Thunderbolt, which itself can carry USB data. And obviously someone proposed Ethernet because didn’t stop to think if they should.
Expensive adapters for all. I’ll go by Firewire for as long as I can source stable adapters, or this perfect hash of a situation is resolved in favour of something I don’t have to dedicate cognitive resources to.

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To avoid confusion, this is technically not correct. The Thunderbolt protocol is effectively an encapsulated, serial PCI-e bus (leaving out yet further complications). Since nearly any adapter can be given a PCI-e peripheral connection, you can adapt everything from graphics adapters to USB controllers to DSP cards. USB itself, as a protocol, however, is NOT directly encapsulated by Thunderbolt 3 - it still requires a PCI-e protocol conversion, which means active hardware (e.g. a dongle), not simply electrical interface conversion (e.g. a cable).

I get that people are confused by the sharing of the connector, but that’s analogous to saying “you can carry data over wires”… it’s useless without specifying how in a myriad variety of ways (electrical signal levels, which wire means what, thence what the signalling pattern is to indicate data, ack, nack, flow control, error detection, thence the sequence of bits to identify, control, and communicate with each device on the bus or link endpoint, thence the control protocol for the device, and so forth). The connector is just a way for wires outside the computer to connect to wires inside the computer, absolutely nothing more.

Also, “Thunderbolt” as I’ve outlined above, is a specific set of meanings for those wires AND signals that go on them AND a method for devices to communicate to the computer AND some very basic layers of the methods for controlling them. USB is a completely different set of these core protocol specifications, plus MUCH MORE in terms of how the OS itself is aware of and generically provides driver support for certain classes of them.

While USB-3 and to a much greater extent USB-4 provide commonalities by which the appropriate protocol can be chosen and thus each is a little more aware of the other, they’re still by no means the same standard, they’re just closer to interoperability. USB-4 will be, if anything, even MORE confusing as it, as a protocol, is even more similar to Thunderbolt 4 (and they both have a 4 in their name, and share a connector, etc) but there ARE differences even there (Thunderbolt won’t provide backwards compatibility to any USB protocol, for instance, whereas USB-4 is a negotiated layer that can provide access downwards to them as fallback), and boy I can’t wait for the confusion here to start when cheap devices and dongles that really can’t translate between them well are abused for that purpose unknowingly.

In short, it really pays to know the differences between the protocols versus the connectors and what types of devices (and thus dongles) you’ll need to adapt what to what. But in near-universal cases, Thunderbolt “upstream” (e.g. on the computer end) can always adapt to USB “downstream” (e.g. towards the peripheral) but NOT the other way around.

Another takeaway of this is that you will always be able to adapt Firewire (downstream) to Thunderbolt (upstream) but it’s highly unlikely you’ll be able to generically adapt Firewire to USB-* (at least until USB-* becomes identical to a Thunderbolt-like generic bus) because Firewire itself is a very generic bus and does not translate to the command-orientation of USB protocols.

As people re-discover the joys of older audio hardware (the human ear hasn’t, after all, changed much), adapting older hardware will only become more confusing to the newer interfaces you’re going to see coming down the pipe, so best to at least comprehend this non-symmetrical relationship between TB-X and USB-X as it will drive the next generation of expansion ports.

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The USB4 specification is based on the Thunderbolt 3 protocol specification.[2] Support of interoperability with Thunderbolt 3 products is optional for USB4 hosts and USB4 peripheral devices and required for USB4 hubs on its downward facing ports and for USB4-based docks on its downward and upward facing ports.

I’ll take your word for it but that’s how it reads to me. I get that their idea was to basically merge the two but I can’t understand why they’re going through so many iterations. I understand that the meanings change depending on context - sometimes we talk about protocols and sometimes about electrical wires and connectors, but I always put on a user hat in this - if it looks like a USB cable, I expect USB to work, and if it looks like a Thunderbolt cable, I expect that to work, and now the cables both look the same, here we are — talking about PCIe which not many people care about…

adding wikipedia’s “data” section for Thunderbolt (interface):

I see USB 3.1 gen 2 there.