There are two kinds – one does the side filtering to tighten up bass toward the center; the other just sums both channels in the LR domain rather than mid-side. The second kind is what you’d want to use to check for phase problems.

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Yeah the mono maker folds any side information below a certain frequency down to mono.

Ableton 10’s Utility plug-in added this feature.

You could do almost everything this thing does in ableton but it requires multiple plugins rather than one. The quality of this plugin is much higher too and it has many more features.

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Hello :slight_smile: I do mastering for 3 years now, if you send me the raw mix and the master I can gladly give you feedback!

I’m not so sure about the quality boost.

Sure EQ8 is less defined on the higher frequencies, but there is no difference and more versatility in TDR Slick EQ (free), which has more curve profiles, great for broad strokes. On the other hand, ReaEQ (free) has great quality for high Q cutting away and problem solving.

Any plugin can be used in mid-side mode with Voxengo or Brainworx both free decoder plugins. So there is your bx_digital for free.

The only setback might be the workflow, but you can set a rack (Ableton) or a preset/template for this.

For mixing and mastering workflow I much prefer Pro-Q, it has way more curves and filters options, and I can control the phase response too.

But by all means, take the bx_digital trial and test it. It’s a nice EQ, but for 299 sounds overpriced to me.

Yes! I came here to recommend this plugin as well. LOVE using this on my master channel. I don’t know if anyone would agree or disagree with me, but when I EQ in M/S, filtering out some low end on the Sides REALLY helps clear up a mix IMO.

First - Here is my Ableton rack that I built and use. It emulates both generic “small square” speakers, and the Toa 22-MEs (Auratone equivalents). It has the mono/stereo switch - as well as a width knob… and it has been “volume” matched, so that you can fiddle with these without changing the perceived volume (in so far as I could get it).

Reference Rack.adg (5.5 KB)

When I find that the bass is “wrong” when I go mono, I look at these things to fix:

  • M/S should remove more bass from the side (usually with low end roll off filter on the EQ), and add more on the mid (usually with a bass shelf). Sometimes it is about dbs, sometimes it is about finding the right frequencies for these two filters. This cures things 90% of the time.
  • Too much reverb on the bass end, or maybe I need a reverb just for the bass with less “character”
  • Check if source tracks for the bass have some inherit phase or volume problem: One side was recorded (or generated) lower than the other - or out of phase. These can be fixed with a utility module. In the worst cases, I make these sources mono (with a utility)… which then usually triggers the reverb review above.

Things are “right” when:
a) I can go back and forth between mono and stereo without the bass end changing relative impact compared to the rest.
b) If I turn on the “small speaker” emulation - leave the track on repeat play and go read a website - then in a few minutes when I turn my attention to the music, it sounds like the track. Of course the mix will be highly colored by the speaker roll-off, but your brain will have adjusted to the “sound”. You should be able to clearly hear all the parts at this point.

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That’s amazing thank you! I’ll share in case anyone else wants to compare. This was literally my first attempt at mastering ITB so I’m not precious about it :slight_smile: I’m sure there’s lots I could have done.

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I did a very quick take on mastering your raw track:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1By3XDDvARUgugh3HT8T0XjaMzipFVKpO/view?usp=sharing

It should be volume matched with your original. If you want to compare it side-by-side with your master take, as well as with the raw, then drop your master by 4db to make them match.

This is all just one set of EQ to balance the spectrum (this is, of course, to my taste - I haven’t talked with you about what you want from the track) - one set of EQ to do M/S processing to keep the bass from being too wide, and the high end from crowding when in stereo. I added no compression, and just a limiter on the end to keep it -1.5dbfs (my normal practice, as that works with on-line services’ MP3 encoding)

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I know there’s no real replacement for digital workflows for this in modular, but does anyone use WORNG’s LRMSMSLR to do similar final processing in the rack? I’ve considered it, but I don’t think I know enough to know how to approach it. :thinking:

With a fixed set of voices in my rack, I’d like to have a more polished sounding output from my improvisations.

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Yes of course! I dont finalize inside my rack but have experimented with mono filters in the side matrix to get more space out of my rack sounds. Personally i find MS processing a pain in the analogue domain, to get things correct you‘d have a matched pair of stereo tools that are not very common in eurorack :smiley: especially compressors are hard to get as a matched pair WITH linked controls-iguess it could be done with a couple of Really Nice Compressors tho-but what abt MS eqing then-the gear park gets exponetially bigger…

Whats cool with worngs LRMS…is the experiments that can be achieved when you use the matrix NOT as a professional matched tool. Eg. Widen a mono springverb return. Have different filters in the side than the mid-Qpas must be a great pairing the LRMS!
Another thing to remember is, that this matrix gives you access to a feedbackloop, imagine filtering/distorting the mono springverb before going into the side-all these tricks will eventually widen your mix. It will always be a mix in my realms…

I just got this for $49.00:

For what it cost I figured why not.

The interface is kinda gimmicky, but the collection of mastering tools (all M/S compatible) in one convenient package looks really appealing (it also has a separate monitoring plugin that comes with it inc. phase correlation).

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Wow, I really appreciate that you actually went in and tinkered with a quick master! Thank you! It’s immeasurably useful to hear another person’s take on the raw audio, especially as it is so different from my result and, naturally, individual taste, technical considerations notwithstanding. It really underscores how much the master is part of the creative process and final character of the music — so many people I know perceive it as a formality or afterthought to “make it louder”.

I recently came across a competition—I think it was related to Sound on Sound but I can’t find at the moment—where a full song of unmixed tracks were made available, and anyone anywhere was able to mix it in any way they wanted. The results were so staggeringly and fascinatingly diverse and I learned a lot just from the instructor’s individual feedback. I’d love to do something similar but for a final master, I know it would certainly be helpful for my to try my hand at tracks I’m not so intimately familiar with.

Ah, I found the page I mentioned. The song itself isn’t exactly my cup of tea but that’s obviously not the point.

http://www.cambridge-mt.com/YoungGriffoCompetition.htm

Yes, it always surprising that just an EQ over the whole thing can make such a difference!

Dawns on me that it might be interesting for this discussion to see what I did. Here it all is:

In retrospect, that was probably more extreme than I normally do in the mastering stage.

The two mid-peaks are to bring out some notes that I really wanted to hear against the fullness of the rest of the track. It is the kind of thing I’d go back to the mix to do, but here I did it in the mastering stage.

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thank you so much for taking the time to write this detailed response, and for sharing your 2 bus rack! much appreciated.

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great stuff! how would you manage this in a live situation, do you use MS processing then as well?

i’m trying out different variants of mixing, for example “intelligent/algorithmic” digital MS processing for fx etc. vs a standard mixer or dj mixer. it’s hard to beat the dj mixer with all the send and kill switches, and the problem for going digital is to find a proper interface. (maybe i should just mimic/implement the analog mixer first, and then extend it in the digital domain…)

my goal is to never feel the need for editing or mastering after a recording is made, without too many limitations at the same time.

edit: i just came to think about the monodeck that robert henke used way back, it’s kind of a very minimal variant of this concept that i’m implementing. http://www.monolake.de/technology/monodeck.html

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There are some concerns with doing this kind of thing live:

In a bigger venue, the house system will already be doing some amount of processing: EQ, cross-overs, and perhaps stereo control. Some systems are even mono in the bass, if not the whole thing. While sure, they are set up to already take a “properly mastered” signal - I’d be hesitant to do try to do that “on the fly” as I send it to them. Send them your signal, and let the sound engineer who is very familiar with the house, do what is needed.

In other contexts, I could see using a M/S eq like the one I used above (the rightmost one), but I’d still have some caution: You probably don’t have the time to A/B compare mono to stereo back and forth to tune that EQ. Even if you did, the stereo field in a typical small venue is pretty varied with listening location. This means that I’d be skeptical of doing this tuning from the performance position (which is likely where the controls are). So, unless you have a lot of time, and a mixer with a tablet remote - and the ability to walk around the venue while tuning… I think I’d as likely do harm as good.

For live performance, I think a better approach is

  • Keep your low bass mono, or mostly so.
  • Be ready to alter the reverbs based on how the room is responding - esp. during the show as the space fills with people.

While you certainly can go from live session to released recording… I don’t think you can approach what you get with post-session work.

I’ve make about 50 or so session recordings a year. I usually record each performer as a separate stereo pair. (These are electronic performers, not acoustic.) Soume amount of mixing is required for even just for a quick “raw mix” to send back to the performers: You are always much more forgiving in the moment in the room than when listening on speakers or headphones.

When producing some of these recordings into release tracks, that final mastering stage significantly improves the sound, and is specific to each track. I don’t think I could achieve that live. Part of it is the lack of time to A/B and tweak in the space - But a bigger part of it is being in the head space of critical listening vs. performing.


The only part of monodeck (which looks luscious!) that seems to pertain is the final EQ stage. This is a graphic eq (though rendered with knobs, not sliders). It allows for broader sculpting of the sound, not really a fine “mastering” EQ.

I have a similar thing on my live chain: A three band parametric shelving EQ. This allows me to make somewhat major adjustments to the feel of a section on the fly. My experience in using it is that it is for those times you don’t mind being heavy handed - because in the moment, tiny adjustments are just lost - again, you aren’t in the headspace to do that kind of work.

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I find this is true even when recording at home, monitoring on the same setup I use for mastering.

(I also find the perspective of seeing the recorded music in timeline form as an oscilloscope or sonograph view, and taking advantage of non-realtime editing, is very much a part of my process.)

yeah i agree to having a somewhat overly robust and “simple” setup, because the acoustic properties of the venue might not play in favor to precise movements anyway.
for checking mono, i have a switch on the headphones itself, but i agree keeping the bass mono is a sensible idea, or even the whole spectrum in case of a busy dance floor.
but, anyway i think some “improvements” for both live and studio recording is possible, at least i sense step-wise improvements in my setup compared to regular mixing desks. it all depends on how you generate the sound and how much you use gating, side-chains and other type of “playing” the mixer capabilities. for example, just using spectral morphing instead of additive mixing is very interesting, and also adaptive buses that analyze spectral content before sending into fx:s. when you finally have the stereo recording, it’s not really much you can do, better to record a new and better piece :wink:

edit: i just want to say that i view mixing as very much part of the creative process, from good ol’ djing style to a more modular approach, but mastering on the other hand is both ear and time consuming, and unless i get specifically told or paid to do it i won’t haha. it’s also very much dependent on the gear you have to A/B with as you say.
what i see with mid side processing is a more intuitive approach to live bus “programming”, for example i generate everything in mono and use left as dry, and right as wet. then i generate stereo or a binaural mix at a separate bus with weights or some undulating function.
the problem with recording everything live is probably the venue, so i completely agree with what you say, it’s almost as if you have to listen both in heaphones and “on” the venue simultaneously, or ask everyone to simply wear headphones…

I have a mastering question on balancing really big dynamic jumps that I’m not sure how to tackle. I am working on mastering a piece that has a section with some really extreme dynamics (going from very quiet ocean waves, to intense, near clipping high-pitch dental-drilling sounds). Curious how other people approach mastering such scenarios when they cross them (both subjective and more technical advice/ideas would be appreciated).

The goal I’m working towards currently is to keep the feel of these dynamic jumps, while making the wave sounds more audible (especially across playback devices, they seem to be getting lost on my mix cube). And trying to make less “pain” with the dental drill sound at “normal” volumes.

To work on balance, I am experimenting with a very mild low-ratio, low-threshold (slow decay/release), wide-knee compressor to help bring up some of the waves sounds (trying to balance not bringing in too much noise floor), and am trying to reduce the intensity of the dental drill sounds with a severe high-ratio, high-threshold (fast attack/slow release), very small-knee compressor, and no gain compensation. basically a not-quite limiter limiter. When I A/B I really don’t know if I’m making all that much difference. I am afraid to get too intense with it, because I don’t want to mess things up as it isn’t my track.

The other thing I’m thinking, is to try using a multi-band compressor to tackle the two separate compression goals (as those two sounds are in pretty distinct frequency ranges).

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