Mobenthey / Ciat-Lonbarde (synthmall) thread

sns · 2019-05-27T20:07:16.906Z

barnjazz:

for the PNP transistors, does it matter if i use BC556, 557, or 558? is each one appropriate only in certain circumstances? same question for the NPN transistors with BC546, 547, and 548.

I’ve had troubles with BC5x6 with a build (it was simply not working, I think it was with a rollz-5 or gerassic organ but I’m not 100% sure), had to replace all of them for BC5x7 so now I only use these just to be sure.

barnjazz:

i had a hard time finding 10uf, 47uf, and 100uf film capacitors on tayda - it looked like those values were only available in electrolytic capacitors. is that OK?

I’m not familiar with Dogvoice but in general if the symbol of the capacitor doesn’t have a circled-hole (like the first pic in your previous post), it has to be non-polarized and thus not be electrolityc (film or ceramic will work).
When it has a circled-hole (like the Hairy capacitor in your previous pic) it means you can ether use a polarized cap (and the “-” will go the this circled hole) or any other. I tend to prefer film/ceramic for values greater than 0.1µF.
Just be careful, some capacitors need to be electrolityc, check the symbol (concentric holes) on the master legend (it’s somewhere on this thread).

barnjazz:

metal film resistors? carbon resistors? is there an appreciable difference between these two products?

I can’t really say… I use 1/4w or 1/8w carbon film resistors most of the time as it doesn’t seem to be very critical in CL paper circuits (but some of them might have metal films too depending on what I have on hand). I think 1/2w would be too big to fit Peter’s designs.

barnjazz · 2019-05-27T20:15:48.099Z

@sns thank you!

thanks for the perspective - i’ll go with 5x7, it looks like mouser has the film capacitors that weren’t on tayda, and i’ll stick to the narrower resistors.

rmro · 2019-05-28T06:13:37.241Z

Anyone had to tune their PB Deerhorn via the trimmers, mines gone out of tune. I see no screws looking down through the holes but if I open it up see screws on the back of the board. Do you adjust it here?

rmro · 2019-05-28T08:23:05.722Z

Well, the answer is yes. My Deerhorn is responding great now

mlogger · 2019-06-02T14:44:52.411Z

I use 1/4W on my ciat builds. 1/8W are a little small.

mlogger · 2019-06-03T01:12:43.791Z

For the Rollz circuits this is what I do.

On each Rollz output I put a different cap value. Mostly ranging from 1uf to 10uf. With the very occasional faster one like 0.47 uf (fast clicks) and slower one 20uf (slow). Peter recommends >0.1 uf upto 100 uf. But 100uf and 47uf is crazy slow. To give you an idea - 0.1uF = 0.066s between pulses, 1uF = 0.66s, 10uF = 6.6s, 47uF = 31s, 100uF = 66s etc. That’s why I use mainly 1uf to 10uf. Like 1, 2.2, 3.3, 4.7, 6.6, 10 uf with very occasional 20uf / 0.47 uf.

Rollz are designed to be chained together to create polyrhythms. Odd Rollz 3 and 5 are barely audible or not at all. They are great for modulating the Ultrasound. Even Rollz 6 and 4 are audible clicks and good to trigger Gongs, Av Dogs, Dogvoice, Ultrasound etc. The fun is chaining odd and even Rollz together before sending them to the sound circuits, so you get clicks and modulation, and polyrhythms, all being sent together.

barnjazz:

the legend doc mentions that both of these symbols mean .01 uf 103k poly capacitor, but here it says that symbol means “104 green.” would he use the same symbol to signify two different things in different circuits, or am i misinterpreting the legend?

On my Dogvoice build i used 103 for both and followed the master legend, but also because Smog Filters YouTube channel mentioned he used 2 x 103 in his videos. As mentioned that symbol is hairy but usually that type of symbol is grouped together, so yes it is hairy, but also you need to use a similar hairy value for all the others with that symbol, so it’s not a totally random hairy for each, if you know what I mean.

barrford · 2019-06-03T12:11:30.657Z

@mlogger thanks for the info on the Rollz frequencies.

I’m currently laying out the circuits for building a “Mini-Rollz” on perfboard. This will be some Rollz, 2 x Ultrasound filter, 2 x AVDog, 2 x Gong plus 2 x noise based “snare” circuit and a 8 input / 4 level / 2 channel mixer plus headphone amp.

Rather heretically, I’m going to use 3.5mm Thonkiconn jacks, rather than bananas, as I already have loads of Eurorack patch cables (including stackcables) and Thonkiconn jacks. I’m also incorporating all of Richard Brewster’s improvements. Thanks to Richard for providing such a detailed account of the Rollz-5.

I plan on building on 150mm x 90mm double sided perfboard, with the jacks and pots mounted on one side and the components on the other side.

Currently, I’ve laid out the Rollz board with 3 pairs of 3 rollz and 4-rollz, and 2 2-rollz ala Richard Brewster. The 2-rollz will be the super-slow triggers (10uF and 22uF probably). Each rollz has one positive going output, and the 4-rollz has a led, like on the Rollzer-4-Plumbutter.

I’ll make the Osmond PCB files available to anyone who wants them, when they are finished, and write the build up, on a github repo / github-pages.

I have two questions: will I miss the 5-rollz and 6-rollz? and, what values would you pick for the 3-rollz and 4-rollz hairy capacitors?

sns · 2019-06-03T12:27:01.661Z

I’ll be interested in your Osmond PCB files, it’s on my “to-learn” list for when I have some time (hopefully this summer) as I’d really like to modify/adapt some Peter Blasser circuits, I could certainly learn from yours .

For the rolls’ hairies you might be interested to put some sockets in place of the caps so you can swap them later if you want. The latest revision of MengQi’s Rollz-5 pcb is made so you can use 3x6 female sockets for each cap so you can try a lot of combinations.

mlogger · 2019-06-03T15:03:30.794Z

barrford:

I have two questions: will I miss the 5-rollz and 6-rollz? and, what values would you pick for the 3-rollz and 4-rollz hairy capacitors?

You have 8 inputs. The more rollz you chain together the more interesting rhythmic things happen. I would want at least one of each Rollz - 6, 5, 4 and 3 = 18 outputs.

Every output on my 3 Rollz and 4 Rollz are different and I would keep 90% of them between 1uf and 10uf. For a 4 Rollz, something like a 2.2, 3,3, 4.7, 10 - or if you want faster a 1 or 0.68 instead of 10. For a 3 Rollz, that will be going to modulate the Ultrasound - something like 1.0, 6.7, 3.3. Going from a higher to a low uf always produces something interesting so you could always put a fast one like 0.47 or a slower 10 in the Rollz 3. Remember you will be connecting 4 Roll uF’s to 3 Roll uF to mix time signatures before sending to an Ultrasound.

barrford · 2019-06-03T15:50:24.302Z

mlogger:

Every output on my 3 Rollz and 4 Rollz are different and I would keep 90% of them between 1uf and 10uf. For a 4 Rollz, something like a 2.2, 3,3, 4.7, 10 - or if you want faster a 1 or 0.68 instead of 10. For a 3 Rollz, that will be going to modulate the Ultrasound - something like 1.0, 6.7, 3.3

Thanks for your reply. Just to clarify - you mean different capacitor values in a single roll? This is different to the Rollzer-4-Plumbutter, but I guess if I want a steady pulse then I just take the first output in the ring, and I can have some interesting rhythms by taking the intermediate outputs.

I was going to have all the same values for pairs of 3-rollz and 4-rollz, like in the Rollzer, but your experience has probably changed my mind. I should be able to fit two sets of complete rolls (a 3,4,5 and 6 roll) all on a single board and, because my layouts are modular (as is the original Rollz-5), I could even build another set of rolls.

rmro · 2019-06-03T16:16:39.269Z

I just finished a Rollz-5 PCB build primarily for the extra Rollz to use with my Plumbutter. I went a bit crazy trying all different kinds of values from 0.001 to 100, got some mad sounds but couldn’t grasp what was going on, it was fun though. I then used the Rolzer scale 1, 1.5, 2.2, 3.3 etc with the same value on each output which I’ve been getting good results with. I’m intrigued by this approach though, going to give it a go ‘Rallentando’ style.

barrford · 2019-06-03T21:19:47.433Z

@rmro Did you socket the capacitors and, if you did, what did you use to socket them? I’m a bit worried that, as I’m mounting the components on the back of the board, the capacitors will be upside down and might fall out!

mlogger · 2019-06-04T00:12:16.537Z

barrford:

you mean different capacitor values in a single roll?

Yes - if you look at what a capacitor does, it holds a charge for x amount of time then discharges to make a pulse click. If you have all equal cap values in the same Rollz each one will click an equal time, then goto the next and click an equal time. If you want to play 4 on floor Techno that’s fine, use a 4 Rollz with 4 x 0.67uf or 4 x 1 uf I don’t want each Rollz output on the same Rollz to trigger at the same tempo though. If I want the same pulse from 1 output, I’ll multi that output, so why would I want 3 more of the same value if I only had a couple of Rollz to play with? I want as much variation as possible.

I agree with the Rollzer cap values sizes (1uf - 10uf), just not all the same equal values on the same Rollz. I understand why Peter has put equal caps in each Rollz of a Rollzer because there are 35 Rollz / 168 outputs in it to mix and match with. You don’t have 35 Rollz. You would not get that type of variation if you put equal caps on just a couple of Rollz.

I like something a little bit more chaotic and that’s the reason for my choices. In my box is 6 Rollz, 5 Rollz, 2 x 4 Rollz, 2 x 3 Rollz.

rmro · 2019-06-04T09:24:42.166Z

I did socket them, it’s the first time I attempted building something like this, sourcing the components was the biggest challenge for me and I wanted it to be a learning experience that I can modify afterwards.

What I used are like these you can cut them to size with side cutters. I do know (now!) that there are 3x2 headers which you can use which I’d source if I did the build again.

Just trim the Caps and push them in, they hold fine. My Rollz caps are on the top but all the others which are socketed are underneath, no problems.

@mlogger Getting some great results mixing up the values now.

pmj · 2019-06-16T18:23:40.829Z

I’ve been looking at the “Multioscillator Superposition Control System” paper circuit diagram recently and there are three components that I’m having trouble identifying, was hoping someone on here might know…

unnamed

The large three-pad rectangle (Voltage regulator?)
The hexagonal shape (Modulation input? Touch point?)
The square snail-shell curl bottom-right (Virtual ground? Choke Inductor? Antenna?)

The three-pad rectangle also appears in the Radio Zither if that gives any clues?

Some guesses in brackets… These don’t appear to be on the Master Legend sheet currently. Thanks for any help.

Zedkah · 2019-06-17T12:43:20.142Z

Dipping my toes into this world , thinking of building a gerassic organ paper circuit.

Was curious about something.
At first I thought the binary numbers created by the 3 buttons allow for 8 different notes and the circuit shows 8 pairs of tuners/ sound controls for 8 different notes. But then I realized that the binary options include 000 ( or none of the buttons being pressed). There are only seven combinations of button presses. So does this mean the organ is sounding all the time- or at least every time all the buttons are released a new note is triggered?

Cementimental · 2019-06-17T13:08:52.384Z

Do you have a copy of the full diagram and/or link to context? can’t find it on his site right now…

barrford · 2019-06-17T14:18:44.201Z

From memory, I think trimmer 0 is the “base note” - i.e. the frequency which all others are in relation too.
I always thought it’d be a fun thing to build this then drive it from an Arduino running a Turing Machine-esque sequencer, instead of the switches. Or for a real CL instrument, have a three rolls that can be patched instead of the switches.

barnjazz · 2019-06-17T14:33:38.851Z

another gerassic organ question: what would it take to add trigger inputs in addition to the buttons? i’m building the organ as part of a rollz-5 hybrid (along with with some of the conrad papers circuits) and i’m hoping to trigger it with AV-dog or one of the rollz circuits.

barrford · 2019-06-17T14:51:33.671Z

The Rollz circuits produce ~ -8.5v when they pulse. i.e. the voltage is negative. This may or may not trigger the Gerassic Organ inputs correctly.
What I would do is use a NPN transistor in a “transistor as a switch” circuit with the rollz feeding the base of the transistor, and the output at the emitter (connected to +ve voltage), via a resistor, and the collector connected to ground.
I’d breadboard it first though!
A google for “transistor as a switch” will show you the schematics.