What do you propose we do now? Close this supposedly childish thread, seeing as you’ve given us the correct path out of it?

If your personal conviction is so strongly held, I do question why you needed to step in here at all.

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I dont think i’m 100% with you but Im really glad somebody said it. A debate like this could be a really good read. Nip the personal attacks out at the bud though.

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You don’t have to read this thread if you’re not into it, and I suggest you treat everyone else’s interests and ideas with respect if you do choose to read it.

In my experience and life, occultism is much less about explaining the world as an alternative to science and much more about exploring the inner psychological regions of the mind. It’s poetry and storytelling, not fact finding.

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agreed.

But, and I don’t wish to pick a fight, this looks to me as an assessment of quality (or lack thereof), which, in my view, defies the very point you’re making.

Alchemy was part of science, and led to something (in the “real” world).

Safe to say ritual, however well founded, is part of art, and leave it at that?
Massively enjoying this thread.

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Some of the ideas here are part of the oldest religious traditions on earth - traditions that are so old that they are intertwined with our language and inseparable from our behaviors. These frameworks for understanding consciousness are far older than written language and far older than what is currently described as science. You could argue that the character of these religious traditions have shaped the development of our minds, and made humans human.

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To my thinking we need poetry and storytelling as much as science… right/left brain stuff maybe…

What I have problems with is mistaking one for the other…

Also, science doesn’t really address questions of meaning particularly well, not for me anyway…

Good topic!

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Music has no rational purpose either, yet here we are.

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Indeed. And pretty much all music can be seen in a storytelling and ritualistic light, even the most rationalized. It’s about expression, community, interpreting the world through senses to make something “more” from it all…

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We can all love music and poetry without believing in ghosts though.

Enjoying the more lengthy nuanced additions to the thread, but I do understand some of the criticisms.

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the Unknown, is Unknown

to science and to our human brainzies

that’s a fact, how do you fill the void between your brain’s capabilities and what is real.

I mean, why would you assume you’re capable of understanding everything that is important.

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I think @Kent started this thread down an unproductive path.

Nobody here has claimed belief in ghosts or other things in a literal sense. So I don’t see the relevance other than using a straw-man to undermine the legitimacy of the conversation.

We’re discussing ritual, occultism, and different views in relation to music making and modular synthesis…

There’s a lot we can learn and experience about humanity and the world that are not about science, explanation, or literal belief and understanding… they can be about emotion, communication, poetry, and finding meaning and community.

The only place this poses a real problem is when people force their ideas on others or it impedes our ability to make meaningful change for the betterment of the world. I don’t see any of those issues in this thread, and I’d love to keep taking about how occult and other ideas can inform how we work with and relate to our instruments and art.

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Also very much recommended, Elaine Pagels professor of religion at Princeton. For a scientificaly minded aproach to finding out what is real in religion and why we have it.

A quote of her’s related to the supposed incompatibility of science and religion: “Just because you can’t see the pond, doesn’t mean the frogs aren’t real.”

At the moment I’m making a new equipment setup and trying to figure out my workflow and mental process. I like this subforum, it helps to get new ideas.

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I do think any perpetuation of things like astrology is pretty toxic to society and general critical thinking, but I do apologize if I put words in anyone’s mouth.

All I mean is that we’re not really talking about, to use your example, if astrology
is real. We’re taking about if some of it’s tenets might be interesting ways to think about modular synthesis and music making.

So unless someone here is trying to make an argument that ghosts and astrology are real, I’m not sure what this reaction is related to other than @Kent’s instigation. Otherwise it’s just interjecting to dismiss things in a way they’re not even being discussed.

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Btw I have been thinking for days about how to formulate a real, personal response to the OP. its complicated

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as someone who has recently posted about ghost’s, religion, and astrology on this forum i feel i should respond: there’s been many let’s call them “rationalists” in my life who, upon further discussion on these topics, have described my views on these things as “not literal”, which I think was a source of comfort for them – as if they’d “won” or figured out that i was just playing a little game the whole time. In my view, the line between literal and metaphorical is not that interesting or useful of a dichotomy, because in most ways the way we talk about everything (especially science) is through metaphor. just because mathematical equations are a useful metaphor for understanding one set of problems does not preclude another metaphor for being useful in understanding another set of problems.

i am in no way anti-science, but i think “rationalism” as an ethos is incredibly toxic and in fact creates the culture of close-mindedness that leads to certain anti-science ways of thinking (like anti-vaccination). The more scientific and humanistic approach would be to remain open to the unknown and listen. There are many ways of understanding the world which are not necessarily at odds with each other, and in fact it can be useful to try to understand it in a few ways at a time. one of those ways – to tie it back – is through engagement with the unknown, the darkness, the occult, into the mystic !

dylan quote from the new rolling thunder revue movie, “life isn’t about finding yourself or finding anything, life is about creating yourself and creating things”. maybe there’s nothing to be found in the mystic, as it were, maybe that space is not one suited for searching at all but for creating ~ i dunno :stuck_out_tongue:

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Actually, I referred to “spiritual realities” and stand behind this.

I would never say I “believe” (or “do not believe”) because the very idea of “belief” as we understand it today is a 17th century Protestant(*) notion, though one arguably rooted in certain aspects of Platonism. The senses of “belief” and the “X” that is believed are already incompatible. “I believe in X” is nothing more than an amphibology, and likewise “I do not believe.”

(*) Ironically, it was an early 20th-century Protestant theologian, an apologetic no less (Rudolf Otto) who in his application of Husserlian phenomenology to religious experience, did much to rescue us from this idea, in his 1917 book Das Heilige (The Holy) – unfortunately mistranslated as “The Idea of the Holy”, where “idea” already indicates that an essential point has been missed.

I’d have a lot to say on this, but I’d refer both to @renegog 's story:

It’s like the story of the american anthropologist in the middle of last century, fascinated by the stories he’s heard of the backwards Irish and how they still to this day believe in fairies and the good folk. So he goes to ireland and travels out to the countryside and sees an old woman walking the long way around a fairy circle. He asks her, “do you really believe in fairies?” to which she responds, “of course I don’t believe in fairies that would be ridiculous. But just because I don’t believe in them doesn’t mean they’re not there.”

[that is: I am in my own way the “old woman” – like it or not…]

and then Nietzsche’s one-page essay “How the ‘True World’ Finally Became a Fable”: https://www.austincc.edu/adechene/Nietzsche%20true%20world.pdf – this gives more of a sense of the intellectual history behind such troublesome notions of ‘belief’.

Anyway – the point… I think more than anything the “instrumental” notion of thinking can be dangerous – the idea that “the spiritual” consists of a collection of concepts or theoretical constructs that are only subsequently applied to music.

For me it’s has always been a mode of being – music, writing, code etc. are all integral manifestations of a spiritual reality, not “domains of application” for “ideas” that would necessarily pre-exist them.

The notion “these are just concepts”, that after all “we’re not really into this stuff” – while a well-intentioned one, does not defend us from attack – it only internalizes it, much as Bentham’s panopticon leads to self-surveillance, much as neoliberal ideology (capitalism’s reproduction of the “relations of production”) becomes self-policing, and so on.

Indeed, the point at which we acknowledge any division between “theory” and “praxis” is the point at which thinking has stopped altogether. Perhaps the origins of the instrumentalization of reason as we receive it today – whether Platonist or Cartesian – the dialectical splitting of “myth” and “enlightenment” – are perhaps unimportant. What’s important is that we’ve uprooted the tree of existence in order to set it upon solid foundations – not noticing that it’s for the most part already dead.

And indeed, the oblivion of being may be experienced most fully in that it is not experienced at all – that no one notices that anything’s amiss. Yet – annihilation is all around, whether in the forms of global fascism, the technological singularity, or climate collapse. Is it perhaps that such annihilation has for the most part already taken place?

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If I came across as saying this I’d like to apologize. This was not what I was trying to say…

In fact, I love the way you express the notion of “instrumentalizing” thoughts as being misguided, and it helps me put words to a discomfort I’ve felt for a long time.

In fact, when reading philosophy or social sciences I often feel like I’m reading texts more spiritual than “rationalizing” in the profound perspectives and relationships seen in the world, ones that can’t be measured.

The way I might put it again now, after your post, is that I’m equally against instrumentalizing spirituality and occultism as I am science and logic. Arguing about the existence of fairies or if you should think that misses the point, because it’s the wrong question.

Edit to add — I really like Warren Ellis’s Injection comic series for this reason.

And that I love thinking about this in relation to me art and artistic actions. Not in an instrumental/direct application way, but in how it all feels and how one can connect you with more.

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Every time this thread pops up my mind wants to play games with the title. I’m currently imagining an altar in a case held together with M2.5 screws. It’s not a synthesizer (though it may have parts that make sound). It’s an altar. With parts that can be added or removed. In a convenient carrying case.

There are various random generators, dice roller, deck of cards layout. A sage filter. Some quartz and amethyst modulators.

I hope you’ll forgive my fanciful imagination. Not intending to make light.

But when I keep thinking about it, I’m reminded of the passive electro-acoustic cases I’ve seen in some thread around here recently. Filled with contact mics and springs and such.

Now I kind of want to do this: convert a Pittsburgh Move 208 I’m not currently utilizing into an actual altar…

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I think this is a fundamental observation that really needs to be emphasized here! We are always operating within epistemes; moving from one epistemological framework to another re-organizes reality around you and redefines what you are able to think/sense/feel/understand. Problems which were intractable may become trivial. Phenomena which were plain as day may simply cease to exist, moving outside of our realm of perception. As you said, some frameworks are better for approaching some aspects of the world around us, while others are better for other aspects. The laws of physics won’t help you through a break-up, and your musical practice won’t help you design a plane; these are two almost entirely independent modalities of understanding/representing the world.

Different modes of analogizing the real have different utilities depending on the context.

Though I do not have any experience with the more “traditional” occult practices, as someone who studied pure mathematics, I would actually suggest that there is something quite magical/occult about it especially as you get deep into it. There are certainly “wizards”/“oracles” - the minds who can see what no one else can - the Gausses, Godels, Galois, Grothendiecks (okay anyone else want to chime in with some more ‘G’ mathematicians?) - and conjure new mathematical realities through invented languages and symbology. On an abstract level, it is not at all concerned with what “science” would consider to be the “real” world; it is only concerned with setting up rules and symbols and exploring the worlds generated by these base conditions and modes of transformation. The fundamental object of study in mathematics is transformation - or better yet, analogy between two objects. There are moments of “divine inspiration,” moments where “reality” (not “our” reality, but a given mathematical reality) reveals itself… or is conjured (this is in and of itself a debate in mathematics - are the realities that it describes created or discovered?).

On a social level, it functions as an exclusive club that erects barriers to entry (on the basis of intellect, financial status, gender, and race) and distances itself from other bodies of knowledge that might seek to find common ground with it. The chosen name alone (“pure” mathematics) suggests an implied supremacy over other modalities of knowledge and claims a closer link to reality. It uses its own arcane languages. It has its own mythology and prophets. Etc.

I could go on, but I certainly think it can be considered an entire occult practice!

Although for the people here who are more engaged with the term “occult” than I am, I would pose this question:

How do you differentiate an “occult” practice/epistemological framework from any other epistemelogical framework and practice? This is more or less assuming that the premsie for discussing the “occult” is that there is not a single reality, but rather only different analogies transduced by different epistemological conduits, different images refracted by their own lenses.

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