I don’t. But then, I also prefer ‘esoteric’ to ‘occult’ as I find it to be the more accurate and descriptive term for what I’m personally interested in.

‘Occult’ implies a binary where a really wild and multitudinous diversity actually exists.

7 Likes

I’m pretty sure that a number of folks here relate to their rigs as a kind of altar, perhaps without using the word consciously.

My experience is of approaching a “sacred space” where I have unpredictable encounters with an entity which makes sounds that inspire and surprise me, and with which I co-create new microcosmic worlds which are both material (sound waves) and ethereal…

If that isn’t some kind of altar, I don’t know what is…

8 Likes

Rationalism is poor when people think their favorite model fits data when it does not.

In my experience, almost anything can be explained using the scientific method, but the problem is finding a model for noisy data, a model which can account for variance and dispersion. But sometimes you can’t describe the conditions and control variables, you lack the tools to identify them, or you can’t sift through the noise and your sample size is too small, so you pretend your model fits the data. Or you have false discovery or you have a small effect size which makes no practical difference. And then there are models which are beyond human thinking.

The problem with the occult is it doesn’t even start with observable fact, it starts with mumbo jumbo.

I’d highly recommend doing some reading and research, because this is just not true. Most started with human behavior, observable phenomena, or societal culture and then grew and changed over time.

There is judgement in your statement that reads as a closed mind, as someone trying to apply an existing specific model to a context that it doesn’t work for.

There is definitely mumbo jumbo out there, but none of us here are talking about that and a lot of that is in a different realm than this stuff…

6 Likes

I see no problem in this being a point of origin for some art. Preferably of the inexplicable kind. Which I guess makes it so suitable for music.

1 Like

II didn’t mean to imply there is no artistic or transcendental value to the occult, just to defend the scientific method and its contributions.

The occult often equates observed and not observed in reasoning, whereas the scientific method if really followed does not pretend to account for the unobservable until the right tools are there, and then its observed and modeled, and remodeled.

1 Like

Other words for mumbo jumbo

Unknown
Mystery
Esoteric
Obscure
Occluded
Occult
Invisible
Implicit
Ephemeral
Ethereal
Confused
Chaotic
Distributed
Dispersed
Diverse
Mixed
Combined
Scattered
Blended
Oblivion

7 Likes

Occult is a very broad term indeed and it has a bad taste in some contexts, but I think it’s quite clear what the context is here from the op.

I respectfuly disagree with your point, we’re referring here to the parts of reality that are not observable by human senses. As in our monkey bodies or minds.

You’re pre-supposing that humans are able to sense everything with their base senses with the help of technology and inferring from this, that the current state of science is the only concrete foundation for dealing with reality, because it’s observable and proveable in the material world.

Almost all humans agree though that there is a further world outside of our senses of the body, which is approached through music, visual art and communal and personal ‘ritual’. A word which also has a bad taste in some contexts, but that again is not what’s meant here.

There are people who reduce love between people to the chemicals and hormones which cause the base emotions and physical brain response in love situations. Then there are people who know on a deeper level that any kind of love that is great in quality has a deeper dimension, apart from the physical world. In the otherwise imperceptible world.

Occult also pre-supposes that there are people who are not aware of such an otherwise imperceptible world. They might dispute the existence of it or mock the people who are aware of it.

But the mods are rightly pointing out that there is no reason for negativity in a mature discussion.

3 Likes

As someone who honestly doesn’t understand the appeal of the occult, I think it’d probably more edifying to listen to people who are more educated on the topic than my own offering of counterpoints.

4 Likes

No, you guys are missing my point. No one engaged with it, just jumped on my mumbo jumbo statement, which I should have left out.

My point is that when people criticize the limitations of the scientific method like people have above, it’s the modeling and tools, not the method itself. The models have shortcomings to explain things which cannot be fully observed or variables and dispersion that are unaccounted. There is no friction between that view and what you and others are saying.

Beyond that, I’m not saying the occult has no value, but it’s not scientific, by definition.

It’s also a modern fetishization of past traditions and practices with a different historicity and culture but that’s another subject, and I don’t mean that in a negative way, but it’s interesting.

4 Likes

i don’t think you’re wrong that fetishization can come into it (i brought this up in an earlier post as well re: my discomfort with neo-paganism), although i don’t really get the feeling that’s happening here… i don’t really see any criticism of the scientific method here either (definitely possible i missed some specific post), nor people claiming that the occult is scientific, quantifiable, or that it has any value in those terms. it’s not that the scientific method shouldn’t be brought to bear on the metaphysical, but again that doesn’t preclude other methods of engagement.

in many ways rationalists fetishize the scientific (not saying you do this, but this is what my prior post was referring to and i think that post may have been interpreted as a criticism of the scientific method). militant atheists can sometimes believe so strongly that there is no god that they become angry and frenzied when they encounter someone with a different view. sure, maybe there’s no scientific proof and what-not, but that approach of close-mindedness towards the unknown does nothing to advance the conversation or learn from the other person, because that militant atheist is so convinced by their own rationalism that they have an irrational sense of their own superiority and understanding of the world.

7 Likes

I prefer to think of it as a revival and continuation of cultures that have existed for far longer periods of time than anything that can be reasonably described as “modern”.

If modernity is the part of the iceberg we frequently see, the archaic is the much larger submerged bit.

1 Like

I think this view is perfectly fair. I mean what else can you do? It reminds me of something Chris Wickham said, paraphrasing that the issue with some histories (economic largely) is they assume that people in Medieval Europe were just like us but pre-capitalist and other social histories read people as too much locked into historical milieu. So instead you focus like John Watts on structures and how they shape events.

2 Likes

We are not able to understand, how much we don’t understand. Only when we learn something new do we understand, that we did not understand that before. So in order to be able to recognize what other people understand, we also would have to be up to the level of understanding of that person to even be able to judge it.

That’s why in my music process I’m trying to improve my humility. Because humility derived from the above mentioned logical fact, seems to get rewarded. By whoever or whatever is the thing called spirit, which is in the fullness of understanding.

If I rely on what I understand too heavily, for example my technological and musical knowledge, I only get results up to that level. Which leads to a kind of drudging, laborious incrimentaly advancing music. Which will start to sound like the mood this can put you in, forced and joyless.

Improve your musical skills and technological knowledge, but put the emphasis on your spiritual practice to get the best results in enjoying your music and to get the most meaningfull results from it.

Love.

6 Likes

And keep in mind – it’s also fine not to understand.

In my own case it began with a very profound set of experiences I had at the age of 13, which were prefigured by earlier events.

It took a full seven years before I even knew of others with similar experiences – and I wasn’t ready (that is, mature enough) to explore it then.

Incidentally, I see “maturity” foremost as a way of owning up to one’s destiny – taking it over, that is; accepting responsibility for it. Maturity thus remains opposed to the childish – but never the child-like.

Indeed, we may never attain the directness and simplicity of the child-like, but that doesn’t mean we should give up trying.

So I didn’t approach the “occult”, it approached me.

The way of its approach I could describe as a “thinking of nature”, but I must first thoroughly overturn the senses of each of these terms. All three must be wrested from modern metaphysical assumptions.

This I hope to do in a later post – which may or may not happen soon, and probably belongs more in the climate collapse thread…

But to give a brief summary of what these terms do not mean:

  • “Thinking” does not mean conceptualization – it above all does not mean anything in the sense of θεωρία (theoria) distinct from πρᾶξις (praxis); I’ve already discussed the pitfalls of instrumental reason and the corresponding (false) dialectic of enlightenment and myth.

  • “of” is not the objective genitive; that is “nature” is not the object of thought; “of” here refers to a relation in which nature is the “element” of thinking;

  • “nature” is not to be taken in any modern sense, but simply as the ancient Greek term φύσις (phusis), which could somewhat vaguely be translated as “emergence” but is really a more specific interplay between revealing and concealing – a primordial “rootedness” which eschews anything “foundational”. It’s a way or understanding in which gods, heroes, and moods alike, emerge and decline, not just trees and flowers.

So the above should be taken as a sketch as to the way of approach, when I claim of having been approached by something. Esoteric as this may seem, it’s an understanding which is already available to us. But sometimes the most near is the farthest of all.

But it is for the reasons articulated by @jasonw22 and others that I also try to avoid the term “occult”. Like “magic”, or “pagan”, it conjures an outside, a negation – facts borne out by tracing etymologies.

I prefer to call it “tradition”, but even this word is suspect.

By “tradition” I do not mean anything nationalistic – nationalism being just another variant of modern subjectivity – I mean only what is most near – an ungrounded movement of metaphor and meaning that remains bounded neither by time nor by the confines of the human.

If there were a way to use the term “mythic” without the pejorative sense of the word “myth”, this may express something even closer to what is meant.

But an understanding capable of properly receiving this term must acknowledge that fire and stone tools are already caught up in this movement; in other words, they are already myths.

10 Likes

Absolutely. I just wanted to reiterate to my fellow people that don’t get it that it’s bad faith to assume the occultists in this thread haven’t considered scientific method, etc. I think it’s better to assume ya’ll know/experience something that I don’t.

8 Likes

On an abstract level, it is not at all concerned with what “science” would consider to be the “real” world; it is only concerned with setting up rules and symbols and exploring the worlds generated by these base conditions and modes of transformation. The fundamental object of study in mathematics is transformation - or better yet, analogy between two objects. There are moments of “divine inspiration,” moments where “reality” (not “our” reality, but a given mathematical reality) reveals itself… or is conjured (this is in and of itself a debate in mathematics - are the realities that it describes created or discovered?).

I wish someone had turned me on to this form of thinking about mathematics when I was at a young age. I hated math until I was well past college, but I would have been so on board with it if I had an inkling of an understanding of how deep/metaphysical/impractical/contradictory/weird/messy it can be outside of its applied forms. The people around me who loved it were attracted to how ‘clean’ and rigid its rules seemed to be, which was exactly what I found so instinctively repulsive. If only I dug deeper into its esoteric nature. One of the things I hope to inculcate as an ambient approach to math when my son is old enough to start grasping the concepts.

6 Likes

What I was responding to was the impression I got from a lot of people in this thread using the word “science.” It reminds me of “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

But what I wanted to convey was that the limitations of scientific modeling and validity of data are not the same thing as the scientific method itself. Scientific method deals with what’s falsifiable, whereas the occult does not. That is not bad faith either to point this out.

Put differently, science is not an area of external quantified knowledge to be set against the un-quantifiable inner unknown. It is just an approach that interrogates observed and measurable facts, or sometimes possible not yet observed solutions to models based on those facts (such as the wormhole hypothesis).

One day perhaps we may map the cerebral cortex and understand the sum of its parts, perhaps not. Perhaps it will remain a realm for the esoteric, meditative, and occult. That is a problem with the tools, not the method.

4 Likes

You may be interested in these books by William Ian Miller

2 Likes

Jah Shaka talks about his process from the Rasta Farian perspective:

He’s a slow talker, but I’ve found this talk to be one of the most inspirational, when it comes to spiritual practice in music production.

8 Likes