#189

Also found this in my bookmarks:
https://soundcloud.com/to-the-four-winds/sets/mutable-instruments-rings-on

@desolationjones: I agree with you, there should be no bashing or hate against people who miniaturize MI modules. There can be discussion about it though as long as it is respectful.
This said, if @caelmore feels that a 6hp Plaits in unplayable and messy, it’s their right to feel that way.
The whole discussion gets a bit repetitive though, and I think everybody has made up their mind about this topic anyway. So we can also just move on and talk about more important things.

My personal view on the matter is that one can totally make mini versions of MI module. It goes against my understanding of usability, playability and good user experience, but if people are happy with sacrificing that in favour of having more modules in less space, I’m not the one to judge.

Since the title of this topic is “Mutable Instruments modules: design, usability, theory, philosophy, etc”, I have to point out that making mini versions that rely completely on knob-less trimmer pots, goes completely against the MI philosophy. But of course the open source license does not say anybody has to stick to the MI philosphy, which takes me back to what I said earlier i.e. that it is totally ok if people make a mini-version out of a MI module as long as they don’t put the MI logo on it or make it look like we had anything to do with it, which is totally not the case here.
And with this I think I’ve said all there is to say about this topic from my side.

I was actually getting to this point as well or at least to a related one. I think this is actually a much more interesting discussion, though of course it’s also dangerous to generalize too much here.
For people who take their modulars a lot around on the road, it does make a lot of sense to keep size down (for obvious reasons). Plus there might be many other reasons to strive for smaller modules.
My point, related to yours, is that there is also a risk to avoid choosing and committing, in favour of hoarding. The bigger the module, the more you are forced to make hard decisions in some way, and making decisions and committing to them is a core aspect of making music.

9 Likes
#190

that escalated quickly :smiley: why the aggression? hate is such a strong word … and i honestly cannot see it in caelmore’s post. found it rather informative …

#191

Thanks @papernoise and @Starthief, those are good perspectives on an admittedly-played-out conversation.

@Starthief: Your point about the perception of technical vs. creative work is close to my heart, probably because I reduce other people’s creative ideas to technically practicable designs for a living. “I want that thing, but smaller/cheaper” is a common theme these days… yet somehow it’s more distasteful in synthesizers than in medical device design :slight_smile:

@papernoise: The loss of your graphics and general MI-ness is probably the toughest pill to swallow when considering a micro module. I honestly feel like they are no longer MI modules, so you’re probably right that this isn’t the correct thread. But sometimes a dude needs a resonator in less than 10 HP…

@prussian_zen I’d recommend reading back through the thread. @caelmore’s contributions have been limited to low-effort dive bomb posts insulting the design of these modules, posted in a manner like there is an expectation that the community will join in the fun. Sorry if my post reads as simply aggressive. I’m not trolling here; I have several micro-MI modules and I have met several of these designers at Knob Con. Great chaps. Plus the DIY community has been very kindly and sharing of their time.

2 Likes
#192

Tinkerers gonna tinker.

Seriously, though, when it’s available in VCV I’ll start experimenting with it. All things are possible through the ES-8.

1 Like
#193

Definitely a fan of ‘If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say it at all.’ on a public forum.

3 Likes
#194

This really hits home :slight_smile: There is a balance between commitment and exploration – one which I was not very good with in my first several months with modular, and one which I am still considering now at a much slower pace.

My first 14 months or so with modular were just the last throes of a long period of experimentation/exploration. Through that I finally found where I wanted to be musically, and that’s when the pace of change to my gear also settled way down.

In theory I like the idea of working with a smaller system than I have, not by shrinking modules but having fewer of them, distilling it to just the core gear to make the music I want to make. In practice, I find there’s very little I want to cut out at this point. Perhaps if I were playing live and had to carry stuff around, I’d be better able to judge which modules are truly the most vital to me.

2 Likes
#195

Totally! And absolutely a good thing. Reminds me of when I had a six string bass and a big multi-fx box, and I would always end up going back to the four string + no fx.

1 Like
#196

Allllll right, now that it’s gotten to the point of quoting Bambi I do want to complain that saying “least interesting alteration” and “eyeroll” are hardly the same thing as “shitting on” someone’s creation. Honestly, even “unplayable mess” is pretty tame in that regard.

Sorry to ruffle feathers!

2 Likes
#197

Don’t worry about my feathers being ruffled as that doesn’t really happen - I deal with 13 year olds all day - I can retain perspective. I’m just trying to nurture a kinder environment. :slight_smile:

I would prefer to see more detailed, thoughtful, and constructive critiques if we’re going the route of negative reviews. That’s just me though.

4 Likes
#198

quoting to reinforce this as someone who has dealt with much worse attitudes that what’s on display here but also as someone who perceives a lack of good constructive criticism in creative communities today

1 Like
#199

I got a new 4 string bass in 2012 as I was getting weary of a laptop-centric setup (at the time just for distributing notes and timings to my little synths) and it was a great choice. I wasn’t interested in processing or chops and that’s actually made a pretty interesting transition into the choices I make in eurorack. I do recommend a nice grip of alligator clips tho.

#200

I apologize if my posts came off as anything remotely hateful. I’m usually a fan of the “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say it at all” approach to forum posting, but that doesn’t excuse anyone from being critical or being critized. This is a discussion about design, usability, etc, in regards to Mutable Instruments’ products, after all.

That being said, I’ve got no issue with DIYers doing what they want with open-source projects. But as both a modular player and a salesperson at a small local synth shop, it’s frustrating to see micro-Mutable modules pop up soon after Olivier posts the files to Github, and to watch as non-DIYers expect fully-built-and-tested DIY micro-modules to be for sale in stores alongside the full-size original version. Instead of rushing to release the smallest version possible for a module that is still commercially available, efforts geared toward expanding functionality and/or creating alternative firmware make more sense to me than sacrificing playability for the sake of saving a few HP. Olivier’s expansion of the Music Thing Mikrophonie into the Mutable Music Things Ears is a perfect example of this, and though I’m often critical of Grayscale’s products, I find their Supercell offering to be a much more interesting prospect than any of the micro-Clouds I’ve seen in my friends’ rigs. I’ve only recently been exploring Mutable’s offerings, and having spent some time trying out both the original modules and the micro-versions of out-of-production ones like Braids and Clouds, I find the full-sized versions much more intuitive, playable and patchable.

For the sake of not running this discussion into the ground, I’ll limit my contributions to this thread to discussion of actual Mutable products and leave the micro-module discussion alone.

15 Likes
#201

Thanks for sharing your perspective. It sounds like you’re well-situated to see the market effects of open source synth design.

#202

This is interesting to me. Do you feel frustration sort of ‘on behalf’ of Olivier or just that the focus is FIRST on compacting the designs? Or a little of both? I don’t know the details of how MI works, but if he releases the files, he seems at peace (on some level?) with opening up Pandora’s box to the possibilities other creative people. Care to expand on this?

1 Like
#203

I am mixed on the micro-izing of plaits, if I’m using plaits as a key tweakable component in a patch, grabbing the knobs is a must! I could however see wanting say 3 or 4 of them for a percussion section where more of the tweaking happened in sequencer so shaving 50% of the hp might be great in a compact system.

As for cheaper, if you’re not geared up for that level of SMD and practiced at it, good luck getting your first build to go perfect. I’m very impressed with MI’s recent price point v design quality & build.

Props to those who take on the redesigns and make something interesting, especially the o_c scale down!

Thank you @pichenettes for opening your designs! And to @papernoise for giving us clear UI so I can skip going back to the manual for little used modes.

2 Likes
#204

Nice. I’m toying with the idea of buying myself a P-Bass for my 30th next year. Always wanted one!

3 Likes
#205

Definitely this. I can only imagine all of the work Olivier and Hannes put into designing and programming everything that Mutable has offered over the years. To take someone else’s work and add nothing to it other than a smaller package and a different name just bugs me to no end. As @coreyr said, props to those who take on the redesigns and make something interesting. My preference will always be to see someone add something new to the discourse, rather than simply paraphrase.

5 Likes
#206

The legacy of open source lives on!

2 Likes
#207

if it’s an instrument you’ve “always wanted,” spend a little more than you think you should and get something you really like. I had two Ibanez as a kid (the 90s active pickups four string I learned on and then a 2nd hand 5 string I got later for some reason). they were okay but I never really “felt” them.

I had some cash coming from an art installation/sculpture I did some last minute hero work for so I popped for a Gibson SG Bass (like an EB-3 which was a youthful longing) which I really had a good time with at uh Guitar Center, a new bridge for it and proper setup and it’s been a good companion and in all seriousness great for my thinking about how I want to make electronic music. then I had to threaten legal action to get paid for the art thing.

now we can have our “how being a bass player relates to this forum” thread.

5 Likes
#208

You should start another thread on that, or a broader, ‘how other instruments influence your process with synthesizers’ thread…

Just another weirdo rock bassist checking in here :slight_smile:

5 Likes